Wet Dry Wet on Two amps

[Heady Jam Fan]

I was thinking about a Wet Dry Wet setups with two amps and had an idea for an unconventional setup, but I wanted to see what people thought.

I have a TC Electronic Chorus that I set for a spread stereo sound: less modulation, makes two amps sound like two amps (with the pedal off, it sounds like one amp towards the middle of the two).

With this in mind, I was thinking of using a Y splitter after my guitar, running cable through the effects (out of the stereo chorus) and into both amps. I was thinking about splitting the other cable again and running into both amps, completely dry.

I was thinking the wet signal, with the chorus, sounds spread and the dry would sound more in the center of the two amps, like the 3 amp wet/dry/wet setup (with the dry amp in the center).

Do you think this would work? Has anyone tried it?

PS* also thinking about running a octave pedal on the dry signal (I know, not exactly dry) and using direct and suboctave when it is switched on. I thought that would sound more natural for the suboctave, not being in spread stereo chorus.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Bump?

[papa taco]

I'm soooo confused.

Anyway, I don't see how you can do w/d/w with only 2 amps. Sounds like you'd be doing w/w.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Originally Posted by papa taco

I'm soooo confused.

Anyway, I don't see how you can do w/d/w with only 2 amps. Sounds like you'd be doing w/w.

I read something about using two amps in stereo for the wet signal and mixing in an amount of dry signal into both amps. Since the wet signal is in stereo (the signal has a slight time difference, caused by the chorus), it sounds "wider," spread across the stage. The dry signal in both amps is mono and sounds relatively like it is coming from a more central location than the wet signal. According to what I read, it is like having a center, dry speaker, but without purchasing a third speaker and it also cuts down on the difference in sound when standing in various locations relative to the speakers.

The best way I can make an analogy for this is listening to music on a stereo. Even though there are two sources of sound, there are still various signals or instruments panned between the speakers. If one signal is an uneffected, unpanned guitar, it sounds like it is coming from directly in the center, even though there is no speaker there. This is the same idea I am describing above as a sort of virtual dry center speaker. Even though it is in both amps, mixed with the wet signal, it will sound differentiated.

So, in some ways, you are right, it is Wet Wet, but I think the dry signal can be differentiated even without a third speaker. If you were to record a wet dry wet setup, it would later be played back on two speaks, such as the analogy, and ought to sound like the wet dry wet setup.

I hope this explains my thought process better....

Thanks,
Jon

[papa taco]

I see what you're saying. Could probably sound good with the right amps. Do the amps in question have more than one input? If they're like good vintage or reissue amps with separate inputs and channels this could probably work quite nicely.

[VTM Mike]

I get confused with Y cables, a/b/c/d and all of that, but I can tell you how I run my rig and get great results doing a true wet/dry. Voodoo labs amp switcher with my wet amp being my VTM 120. I run a G major in the loop of that with whatever patches I want (some for solos, some for wet rhythm, some with chorus, etc,). My dry amp is my 6505+. 2 412 cabs side by side. The two blend so well together, you would swear the chorus is coming through both cabs, it fools the ear really. I have no phase issues, etc. Works great for the VH stuff too. For the VH stuff the wet signal is, uh, pretty wet......

[Heady Jam Fan]

Originally Posted by papa taco

I see what you're saying. Could probably sound good with the right amps. Do the amps in question have more than one input? If they're like good vintage or reissue amps with separate inputs and channels this could probably work quite nicely.

Thanks for reading my clarification, I appreciate your input! They are not vintage amps, Fender Super Champ XD. So they only have one input, that was one of my concerns (if they were twin, stereo, the setup I described would be much easier). They are perfect for home, recording and small gigs.

I was thinking about using a y adapter. I know some people suggest this can degrade the sound, other say it makes not difference. I have never tried it, but it would only cost me about $20-30 in supplies to setup. On that note, however, I have a nice buffer that I suspect ought to maintain the signal quality. I can set a mix between the wet and dry signal by adjusting the volume on my effects, ie turning the volume up or down on my compressor.

I know this is unconventional, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Worth a try since it is so cheap. I guess there is no one standard way to do a W/D/W anyway.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Originally Posted by VTM Mike

I get confused with Y cables, a/b/c/d and all of that, but I can tell you how I run my rig and get great results doing a true wet/dry. Voodoo labs amp switcher with my wet amp being my VTM 120. I run a G major in the loop of that with whatever patches I want (some for solos, some for wet rhythm, some with chorus, etc,). My dry amp is my 6505+. 2 412 cabs side by side. The two blend so well together, you would swear the chorus is coming through both cabs, it fools the ear really. I have no phase issues, etc. Works great for the VH stuff too. For the VH stuff the wet signal is, uh, pretty wet......

I have thought about that, but I really like running my chorus in stereo, which I wouldn't be able to do otherwise. I wonder if it sounds like chorus is coming from both cabs because there is a time difference between the two cabs causing modulation? Some effects have a slight impact on the time it take the signal reach the amp, which could cause chorus between the wet and dry signal I suspect. Although I can be completely wrong.

[papa taco]

I wonder is you should use some kind of mixer instead of y cables? Just thinking out loud.

[VTM Mike]

Originally Posted by Heady Jam Fan

I have thought about that, but I really like running my chorus in stereo, which I wouldn't be able to do otherwise. I wonder if it sounds like chorus is coming from both cabs because there is a time difference between the two cabs causing modulation? Some effects have a slight impact on the time it take the signal reach the amp, which could cause chorus between the wet and dry signal I suspect. Although I can be completely wrong.

Yeah, I think it may be the fact that the cabs are close together and the sound is getting mixed out in front? Don't know, I'd be willing to bet that if I split the cabs apart you would be able to tell the chorus is only coming out of one side. I've been thinking about trying this in true stereo as well, just haven't had the motivation to do it yet.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Originally Posted by papa taco

I wonder is you should use some kind of mixer instead of y cables? Just thinking out loud.

Lol, yea, i think most people reading this are thinking that. I have a cheap Behringer mixer, which I could incorporate if I have trouble with levels between the wet and dry, but I don't think it would help much more than that honestly, and I should be able to set the level with my compressor. The nice thing about the mixer would, with my limited knowledge, would be the ability to have a master volume for wet and dry rather than adjusting both amps to the same volume.

Even with the mixer, I think I would probably still need to use a Y splitter.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Originally Posted by VTM Mike

Yeah, I think it may be the fact that the cabs are close together and the sound is getting mixed out in front? Don't know, I'd be willing to bet that if I split the cabs apart you would be able to tell the chorus is only coming out of one side. I've been thinking about trying this in true stereo as well, just haven't had the motivation to do it yet.

If it is the sound between the two speakers creating that chorus/modulation, spreading them apart probably wouldn't get rid of it (it sounds like you like the modulation it creates anyway, which is cool). Actually, if you are getting a natural chorus between the two, spreading them would create a really wide sound that you might really like. Also, if this is the case, that is, I believe, essentially what stereo is - a slight time difference that makes the two sound sources sound separate. I use my chorus pedal this way and keep my amps about 7 feet apart and it sounds great (if I turn the chorus off, it sounds like one amp in between where the two amps actually are). Setting chorus at a low speed and high width creates a spread stereo setting, sounds less modulated and generally just makes the guitar sounds huge.

But on that note, I wouldn't give up that huge sound from the stereo chorus, which is why I do not want to do a w/d with my rig.

[Heady Jam Fan]

Got my splitter cord today, split my signal after my buffer, one side going through my effects into one amp, other side, dry into the other amp, creating a wet/dry setup. Once I got the volume ratio set at about 50% / 50%, it sounded great. It seems that expensive equipment may not be necessary for a good w/d setup, I am sure others will argue with that. This really helped to preserve the clarity and articulation of my playing despite even significant amount of overdrive on my wet signal.

On that note, I am still a huge fan of running my chorus in stereo, which the above setup does not allow, so I will have to wait till I can get Y patch cords to implement that with the setup I begin this thread with. Additionally, while the w/d setup helped preserve the clarity through my effect chain and did benefit the sound, I am not thrilled with how it sounds to have the wet signal on one side, the dry on the other. This may have been exacerbated by the fact that my amps are about 5-7 feet apart, so the wet and dry are easily distinguished. If I was motivated enough to move the amps closer, it would have sounded better I am sure, but I think the w/d/w setup will cure this, allowing the wet signal to be run in stereo (via my chorus) and the dry signal to be "surrounded" my the effected sound.

[splatt]

Originally Posted by Heady Jam Fan

Got my splitter cord today, split my signal after my buffer, one side going through my effects into one amp, other side, dry into the other amp, creating a wet/dry setup. Once I got the volume ratio set at about 50% / 50%, it sounded great. It seems that expensive equipment may not be necessary for a good w/d setup, I am sure others will argue with that. This really helped to preserve the clarity and articulation of my playing despite even significant amount of overdrive on my wet signal.

these days, i often use my equipment in that "simple" W/D setup,
for that very reason:
clarity.

after using a purely W/D/W rig from 1983 onwards,
i discovered the sonic "efficiency" of that clarity while working in some recording sessions,
during the early '90's:
it can still work for me, both "live" & in recording.

back on-topic?
a W/D/W set-up requires, imo, 3 separate amps,
to achieve that true 3-point stereo (or, "triple mono") sound.

dt / spltrcl

[Heady Jam Fan]

Originally Posted by splatt

these days, i often use my equipment in that "simple" W/D setup,
for that very reason:
clarity.

after using a purely W/D/W rig from 1983 onwards,
i discovered the sonic "efficiency" of that clarity while working in some recording sessions,
during the early '90's:
it can still work for me, both "live" & in recording.

back on-topic?
a W/D/W set-up requires, imo, 3 separate amps,
to achieve that true 3-point stereo (or, "triple mono") sound.

dt / spltrcl

I think you are right, but also, in my limited knowledge, it seems the consensus is that there is not conventional way of doing a w/d/w setup. There are ways that work and can be modeled, but with such variation in equipment, playing style and tonal opinion, there seems to be no single answer.

Three amps would certainly produce some difference. Again in my limited knowledge, I suspect that ought to do largely with an individuals positioning relative to the speakers. Once you record a w/d/w and play it back, it is on a two speaker stereo (most likely) and the center channel is split between the two speakers.

The setup using two amps would "emulate" this, and probably, as you said, would not be considered true w/d/w. It would be dry signal mixed in with wet on both amps, yet would be "spatially" distinct because of the chorus (I believe this will occur when I try it and with my recording experience). What I had read about the setup I am attempting is that it has benefits, particularly since there is less variability in the sound a person perceives relative to their position in the room - the sound would be more consistent in different places from the speakers. I suspect the greatest potential issue would be wether the dry signal would, in fact, be distinguishable from the wet, at least enough to preserve the clarity.

But this is all a theory, I will get some y patch cords in a few days, test it and let ya'll know what my opinion is.