Why did DLR bomb so badly after VH?

[Goldburst]

in many interviews i've read of VH, & this was mirrored in interviews i've read of Kurt Cobain, stating that they do the music first and then the lyrics come next. but both stress that it's the MUSIC that they work on as a band... i would argue that the "music" is coming up w/ the melodies


Yea, I'm trying to get into the specifics of why EEAS did not really carry on the same type of great song crafting of the previous VH albums... but 5150 did. Here's something I found as an example with DTNA:

"Dance the Night Away" became Van Halen's first Top 15 hit, in July of 1979. The song came together one afternoon in the studio as the boys were standing in a circle humming at each other. It was inspired by Fleetwood Mac's "Go Your Own Way." Eddie purposely left out a guitar solo in the final version. The song's early title was "Dance Lolita Dance," but Eddie convinced Dave that "Dance the Night Away" was a more suitable title, hence the band changed the chorus.
http://www.classicvanhalen.com/albums_vh2.shtml

So maybe I was a bit off considering Dave to be the band's "songwriter" ..it may have been more of a collaborative effort, particularly the choruses. And right here we see Eddie convincing Dave to change the title.

When DLR went solo... all that extra input/restraint of the other members went away. (and Al, Ed, & Mike all had decent music-theory training too)

[Brooks]

Originally Posted by MuseCafeChris

You're one of the few who doesn't like "Eat 'Em and Smile." For many (myself included) it was a much better effort than 5150.

The bombing perhaps began when he couldn't keep the EEAS band together for a second tour.

THIS. i saw that tour, it was blistering; DLR was taking it seriously again, it was like VH w/ better chops (yes, i said it). i love the EE&S album way better than any van hagar.

5150 sold more albums, but that doesn't mean DLR bombed.

i saw VH on the 1984 tour, it was kinda a mess. then i remember putting 5150 on the turntable and being sooo bummed; on paper, sammy joining looked like it was gonna be fantastic, but the pop tunes just sucked imfo. as always, YMMV.

[Sweetfinger]

Originally Posted by monty

Eat em was the best album by either camp since 1984.

A good case to be made there. I think if you cobbled together a greatest hits of post '84 VH, you would have a better disc but I don't think that DLR "bombed" by any measure. Like saying John Lennon never really got off the ground after the Beatles.

[overunderdrive]

Originally Posted by mtmartin71

Never resorted to schlock? What is the explanation for this one?

whether or not you dig the tune or the performance, there's no arguing that Dave has a sense of humor.

that whole thing is hilarious, tongue in cheek, ironic, whatever...

but on no imaginable level does it display the ridiculously earnest sentimentality of tunes like 'Is this Love' or 'Why Can't this Be Love'

and don't even get me started about that tune 'Right Now'.

holy crap, what a turd.

[monty]

It is all personal anyways, no right or wrong.
Being pumped for the reunion I pulled out some VH/DLR cds. 5150 was in the car for 2 days and EEAS a week and a half. I dont want any sass about covers or anything, one of these rock harder than the other.
In this corner:

1. "Yankee Rose" (David Lee Roth, Steve Vai) – 3:47
2. "Shy Boy" (Billy Sheehan) – 3:23
3. "I'm Easy" (Billy Field, Tom Price) – 2:11
4. "Ladies' Nite In Buffalo?" (Roth, Vai) – 4:08
5. "Goin' Crazy!" (Roth, Vai) – 3:11
6. "Tobacco Road" (John D. Loudermilk) – 2:27
7. "Elephant Gun" (Roth, Vai) – 2:23
8. "Big Trouble" (Roth, Vai) – 3:56
9. "Bump And Grind" (Roth, Vai) – 2:32
10. "That's Life" (Dean Kay, Kelly Gordon) – 2:29

And over here:

1. Good Enough" – 4:04
2. "Why Can't This Be Love" – 3:47
3. "Get Up" – 4:37
4. "Dreams" – 4:54
5. "Summer Nights" – 5:06
6. "Best of Both Worlds" – 4:48
7. "Love Walks In" – 5:11
8. ""5150"" – 5:44
9. "Inside" – 5:02

[big mike]

Originally Posted by overunderdrive

whether or not you dig the tune or the performance, there's no arguing that Dave has a sense of humor.

that whole thing is hilarious, tongue in cheek, ironic, whatever...

but on no imaginable level does it display the ridiculously earnest sentimentality of tunes like 'Is this Love' or 'Why Can't this Be Love'

and don't even get me started about that tune 'Right Now'.

holy crap, what a turd.

i literally could argue the exact opposite.

Look, EVH hands a completed song to the singer, they come up with words.

but IMO all 3 of those are damn good songs.

Just a giggolo is a clown song. Seriously.

[Chrome Dinette]

This is obviously a matter of different strokes for different folks.

For the record though, I am in the DLR camp. I like VH with DLR and I like some of his solo stuff. I can not conceive of ever enjoying anything I have heard Sammy Hagar do. I am not saying he is untalented or that he is a bad musician, just that what he does is not my thing.

Is DLR a clown? Maybe. I have always found him funny. Perhaps he is the musical equivalent of Shakes The Clown, a movie I happen to like.

[sahhas]

re:"Since tastes are different, I think the only way to truly measure who was "better" is to see who sold more albums."

well, then i think garth brooks wins, didn't he surpass beatles/michael jackson a few yrs ago or something....no idea how. but i guess it happened.....i think it's "creative accting"...

anyway...well, if you do just count the #s: VH w/ hagar probably win...i don't think DLR solo albums continuously sold 2 mil + albums, which the late vh w/ hagar albums did. 5150 did 5 mil i think...i thought somewhere i read that EE&S sold in the neighborhood of 3 mil albums...but i do remember the toured pretty heavy on that-i saw them in '86 don't remember seeing him much after any of the other albums...

to me, if you want to boil it down EVH & DLR need each other. they probably hate each other-they are opposites in everyway, but together they have a chemistry that creates a perfect band. wish they would realize it. i'm not saying that DLR is the greatest lyricist/singer, but i think he's better than hagar w/ vh. there are very few duds in VH w/ dlr (heck i'll listen to dancin in the street long before i'll like most of the hagar ballads!), i liked the sammy yrs, but there are songs (that folks have mentioned) that i never liked from sammy yrs, here's wishing we hear something this yr.......

[Smakutus]

Originally Posted by BryanMatthews

This is the reason.

I saw them three times on the Eat Em tour and they got better each time.. Their next album should have been smoking instead it didn't even sound like Billy Sheehan was on every song.. I was bummed and didn't ever see them again.

Jeff

[NHDave]

I believe Van Halen is like a football team with a great
system. Good ears, solid songwriting, great work ethic,
great sound, solid complimentary players (ie; micheal
anthony with his killer backups). They also had that
elusive star quality that you can't really quantify you just
know it when you see it.

I don't want to rag on steven and billy, but it's
just different.

[mvd18969]

Ladies Night is a Billy Sheehan song that he brought to the band. I believe he did this tune w/ his old band when they were based in Buffalo.

Originally Posted by Goldburst

I was listening to "Ladies Night in Buffalo" a few posts above which I haven't heard in over 20 years.

First off, if this song had been done by VH, Alex probably would have done his signature semi-open hi-hat, and there would be lotsa recognizable EVH guitar fills throughout.... things like that go a long way towards "fan familiarity"



But does anyone have any insight on how the VH brothers may have restrained DLR's song writing? I notice in "Ladies Night" there's no real payoff with the big Mike Anthony backed chorus. Would the VH brothers have insisted with Dave that the song have a better chorus payoff?


Likewise... Dave really went off the deep end with his "clown" persona starting with Eat 'em.... which really annoyed a lot of people. Would the VH brothers have reeled that stuff in?

[Flinto2002]

Originally Posted by Goldburst

Yea, I'm trying to get into the specifics of why EEAS did not really carry on the same type of great song crafting of the previous VH albums... but 5150 did. Here's something I found as an example with DTNA:

When DLR went solo... all that extra input/restraint of the other members went away. (and Al, Ed, & Mike all had decent music-theory training too)

Its because your whole premise is flawed. You're looking at DLR as a primary creative force in Van Halen (which he was not). Your views on songwriting and arranging are similarly off kilter.

EEAS didn't carry on the same type of song crafting because EVH was not writing the songs. Thats what Van Halen was... Eddie writes the songs while getting drunk with Alex, then the singer comes up with words and melodies that suit the completed song, then Ed tells Mike what to play (or in many cases just plays it himself) Thats van halen, its no great mystery

[RedTiger]

Originally Posted by atquinn

-Austin

Laugh all you want, I'm 100% correct. Sammy's most recent attempt at saying something is probably Chickenfoot's "Avenida Revolution". I can name a handful of VH songs too.

Instead of rolling on the floor laughing, why don't you get up and quote where I said that those attempts to say something actually work (why does everyone always read a simple statement and imply more than what is intended?). Honestly, compared to the subject matter of most DLR songs, a kindergartner's poetry is probably more of a 'statement' about something meaningful. The man isn't known for his attempts thoughtful commentary. That isn't his thing, and that's perfectly ok. I don't listen to classic VH and EEAS for deep reflection.

[NB_Terry]

Eat em is one of my favourite rock guitar cds.

That tour was huge. I saw Cinderellla open for DLR in Toronto in 1986. Huge show.

Skyscraper was a big let down, but still had a couple of good moments, and then I lost interest when Vai left.

[Goldburst]

Its because your whole premise is flawed. You're looking at DLR as a primary creative force in Van Halen (which he was not). Your views on songwriting and arranging are similarly off kilter.

EEAS didn't carry on the same type of song crafting because EVH was not writing the songs. Thats what Van Halen was... Eddie writes the songs while getting drunk with Alex, then the singer comes up with words and melodies that suit the completed song,

No, I think YOUR views on songwriting and arranging are off kilter. Eddie spending endless nights recording riffs into a tape-deck is NOT songwriting... it's arranging. The words and melodies are the songwriting.. ask any songwriting pro in Nashville or New York.



There's an old story in songwriters circles about a dance-pop producer who came up with some great dance tracks, and hired a songwriter to complete the project. When the songwriter asked what was needed, the producer said "just words and melodies for the singer to sing" I've met a lot of rock guitar-slingers like that.. they think that their amazing riffs are "songwriting" and that the words and melodies the lead singer does are almost like an afterthought.

What seems to have happened with EEAS is that DLR still wrote the words and melody just like he did in VH... but he no longer had Ed & Alex to filter him... and suggest what should be changed, cut, added, or emphasized.

I mean really.. does anyone think Ed & Alex would have tolerated half of the crap that DLR let fly in "Yankee Rose" ???