Zeppelin: Question for you guys

[rollingzep]

I very rarely post but man this is just ridiculous. Every single time the same story. I am not sticking up for them but everytime it derails what is most of the time a good thread. Goes down to the same nonsense. Would we be having this conversation if Zep didnt hit it bigtime? IF Dazed was such a huge hit why wasnt it all over the airwaves before Led Zeppelin covered it? Should he get some compensation? Yes. But should he get royalties for a song nobody knew about and if zep didnt cover it would still be just another song? Theres a fine line there. My stance is no. would i be acting different if it happened to me? Probably not. Like I sid it was an obscure song before and it would still be an obscure song.

Rant over. I just get fed up with really good threads going to crap because of the same people spewing the same nonsense. Yes Robert Plant nicked the words to Whole Lotta Love but someone said Page also nicked the riff from the same song. Its not even close time to take off the tin foil hat

[chopsley]

Originally Posted by rollingzep

I very rarely post but man this is just ridiculous. Every single time the same story. I am not sticking up for them but everytime it derails what is most of the time a good thread.

Ah, but this is the official "dump on Zep for plagiarism so Donnie's other Zep threads don't get derailed" thread.

[DWB1960]

Originally Posted by rollingzep

IF Dazed was such a huge hit why wasnt it all over the airwaves before Led Zeppelin covered it? Should he get some compensation? Yes. But should he get royalties for a song nobody knew about and if zep didnt cover it would still be just another song? Theres a fine line there. My stance is no. would i be acting different if it happened to me? Probably not. Like I sid it was an obscure song before and it would still be an obscure song.

My bigger issue is just how much of I'm Confused by Holmes actually ended up in Dazed. If you listen to both tracks it's very little in contrast to the entire songs. A 10 note descending riff with an eerie vibe.

Zep's Dazed has so much more going on with how the riff was fleshed out and expanded as well as a bunch of additional sections that truly make the song epic.

Folks that say Page ripped Dazed from Holmes imply that he ripped the whole tune. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Again, a 10 note riff and a vibe. Holmes should get a minor credit but he in no way deserves a full writing credit or full royalties.

[Chuck Snider]

Originally Posted by neastguy

I just got off the phone with JP and he said that he and Plant and Jones don't give a rats ass if TGP hates them.. post away!!!!

That's funny, I was just talking to Pagey last week. I mentioned the gear page and he said "Gear Who?"

[clarkydaz]

Originally Posted by Chuck Snider

That's funny, I was just talking to Pagey last week. I mentioned the gear page and he said "Gear Who?"

did he reverse the charges to you? on someone elses phoneline?

[Stonesy]

Cant wait`til they trackdown the Kashmir guy in Tunisia.

[rspencer]

Originally Posted by Donnie B.

My bigger issue is just how much of I'm Confused by Holmes actually ended up in Dazed. If you listen to both tracks it's very little in contrast to the entire songs. A 10 note descending riff with an eerie vibe.

Zep's Dazed has so much more going on with how the riff was fleshed out and expanded as well as a bunch of additional sections that truly make the song epic.

Folks that say Page ripped Dazed from Holmes imply that he ripped the whole tune. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Again, a 10 note riff and a vibe. Holmes should get a minor credit but he in no way deserves a full writing credit or full royalties.

The riff, the vibe, the title, a good bit of the melody, and originally the lyrics. The Yardbids changed the title to "I'm Confused" but kept the lyrics. Zep changed it back to the original title but changed the lyrics.

It's obvious that Holmes song is the template of the Zep song IMO. Holmes opened some shows for the Yardbirds, they dug the song, went out & bought the album & nicked it.

Sure, they changed a bit, dressed it up some. But it's the 70s rock version of the partscaster...upgraded some parts, put on a nice finish, didn't license the headstock shape.

[Flogger59]

They were inspired by a piece of music. Some of the inspiration was too close to the original, they got their fingers rapped (as they should), and paid. They're still paying today here in this thread. That is how it goes.

Songwriters get their inspiration from other songwriters. Mozart was inspired by a bird. Should the bird have lawyered up? Lennon and McCartney always said that they were re-writing their favorite records.

As for Stairway, if Zep are getting stick for it, then save a few for Clapton, who used a nearly identical guitar figure on Let It Grow, or Harrison for the middle eight of Something.

[DWB1960]

Originally Posted by Donnie B.

So, for the Zap bashers; here's your chance to dance of the bands grave.

1. Dazed and Confused. Jimmy stole the 10 note descending line and also the haunting aspects of the vocals. He should have at least credited Jake Holmes as Trad Arraignment. Now granted, Holmes provided the 2 x 4s and the nails, but it took Zep to build a freaking mansion out of them.

2. Whole Lotta Love. Plant nicked the vocals from Willie Dixon and the delivery from Steve Marriot. Guilty as charged. The music is 100% Zeppelin.

3. Stairway. Page nicked the quaint opening from Taurus/Spirit but that's about it. Again, to say Stairway is a complete rip is just plain stupid. Spirit supplied a couple of bricks - Zeppelin built a castle.

Zep stole some stuff for these 3 songs. GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY. They should have credited in some way, the inspirations. They f*cked up and didn't, thinking that what they created from those inspirations was enough to stand on its own.

Here's another chance to flail away on Zep without having to trounce on these individual song threads that I'll be posting real soon.

I'm certain that they'll be some party poopers who won't be able to withstand the urge to do it anyway, but I'm hoping to keep it to a minimum.

[Bussman]

See my Zep mashup thread. Zep mashing is way more fun than Zep bashing anyway! Hahaha.



Yes, this is blatant thread spamming.

[tnvol]

I could care less what they did. I love Zep and listen to them all the time.

[zep41]

Nobody learns and composes music without having first...learned and composed music.

I dont care what you say but all of us can write a song right now and it would be a compilation or direct result of something(s) that we have heard or studied previously. It may be obvious, it may not be that obvious.

In some instances, it was relatively obvious for Zeppelin. They knew what their influences were. And they wanted to use those influences to their advantage and incorporate it to their strengths. LOOK AT THE RESULT!!! Some of the best rock and roll music ever produced in the history of man!

People really have that big a problem with this? When its been going on for centuries?

Sorry, Wille Dixon should barely get dick for Whole Lotta Love. All he came up with was the phrase "way down inside woman you need love." I know the court says otherwise, but there is a lot more to that Zep song than just that sentence. If you disagree, then go ahead and make a track that uses the phrase "way down inside woman you need love." Do it over and over again in the track--- since that IS the song. Lets see if your record hits #1......

People just want to bash because they CANT do it themselves. If it was so easy, everyone would just be reworking a bunch of obscure blues tracks and turning them into masterpieces and pretty soon they'd have gold/platinum records and sell out venues across the globe for a decade. Lets get some guys together and do it -- its simply THAT easy....right?

Truth is, its not. There is a reason why Memphis Minnie and Joe Mcoy's "Levee is Gonna Break" (which, actually WAS credited properly on Zeppelin 4 by the way) was basically popular for 5 minutes in 1935 or whatever, yet we've been hearing Zeppelin's "When the Levee Breaks" on FM radio since late 1971. There is a reason why Jake Holmes wasn't a world famous mastermind raking in dough for his "dazed and confused." There wasn't some miracle of the stars and planets that just happened to allow a bunch of nobody 20 year old English boys get together and re work the song and turn it into a rock and roll juggernaut that a hundred million people have paid to hear. I'm sorry to inform you, but bad luck wasnt following Holmes and good luck only following Zeppelin. Not the case.

Some musicians were good. Zeppelin were just better than most. They had a formula, they arrived at the right time, they knew their influences, they knew their shit, and they were able to compose and produce on a level higher than anyone else during the time. On a higher level than pretty much everyone else ever, as a matter of fact.

Some people are just really really good at what they do, and for a while, everything they touch basically turns to gold. That was Led Zeppelin in the late 60s and 70s. Some people have a hard time coming to grips with that.

[Lone Bear]

Originally Posted by m1911

What happened to Keith's left index finger?

[Tiny Montgomery]

Originally Posted by rollingzep

Rant over. I just get fed up with really good threads going to crap because of the same people spewing the same nonsense. Yes Robert Plant nicked the words to Whole Lotta Love but someone said Page also nicked the riff from the same song. Its not even close time to take off the tin foil hat

Yeah...not even close. Zep's has distortion, and is a little slower. Never mind that the melody (the important part, in these kind of cases...) is the same.

Arrangement is not the same as composition. Simply playing a different arrangement of a song, with different instrumentation and production, doesn't mean it's not a cover. Otherwise, Jimi wouldn't have credited Dylan with "Watchtower," and Elvis would have a shitload of songwriting credits. It doesn't work that way.

That said, "Stairway" is a stretch. It's just a guitar lick, which has more to do with arrangement than songwriting anyway, and at that, it's no more "Taurus" than it is "Summertime," (which borrows from Wayfaring Stranger) and the melodies to the songs aren't the same. It's just a minor chord and a chromatic scale.