12" Speaker Comparisons

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Jarick, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. Jarick

    Jarick Supporting Member

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    So, if this hasn't already been done before, how about a graphic comparison of how you hear speakers?

    Descriptions are nice in reviews and all, but unless we know if you think a V30 is bright or dark, it doesn't really help much.

    So how about this:

    [​IMG]

    What do you think?
     
  2. fakeox

    fakeox Member

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    Looks like a good usable tool, How 'bout using the Emi Red=Brit:mad: ,Blue=American:confused: ?
     
  3. Jarick

    Jarick Supporting Member

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    Hah...the "tool" is Microsoft Paint. I did it at work but didn't send the file to myself...oh wait, hold on...

    [​IMG]

    There you go.

    I was actually hoping people could compare some Celestions to Eminence and Webers, as all the sound clips and descriptions were confusing. It took me forever to source the Celestions and try them out.

    Anybody want to give it a shot?
     
  4. mad dog

    mad dog Silver Supporting Member

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    There are so many different models from both manufacturers, it's hard to compare Celestion and Weber meaningfully. Of the Celestions I've used, hated the Vintage 30s and vintage 10s, appreciated the clarity and cut of the G!2H and G12T, found the Greenback the most pleasing to actually play through. All are somehow more in your face, rock and roll than the Webers I've tried. That Greenback really worked for me.

    The Weber vintage alnicos strike me as better versions of the classic Jensens. The vintage ceramics from Weber somehow take that classic sound into much higher efficiency realms without sacrificing a vintage character. Some of the straight cone ceramics I've heard are just perfect for the tweed, bluesy sound I like. Deep, clear sound with a raucous edge on top.

    So much depends on the application. With certain amps, I find myself wanting to try weber blue pups and silver bells. At that point, I really should try out the analagous celestions as well.
     
  5. carltonh

    carltonh Member

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    This brings to mind how I think people sometimes use the term "compressed" to mean exactly the opposite things. For example, there is volume compression, which is what I'd call what you are using, and there is relative 2-D compression sterility.

    I'd say they are opposites because with a volume type compression of, say an alnico Blue, you can hit the strings harder and it won't sound harsh but 3-D.
    But with a G12T-75 if you dig in, the tone doesn't expand, volume just gets louder and harsh. To compensate, you dig in less and play less dynamically.

    So there is probably a better set of terms for your vertical column, but it is still a good idea.
     
  6. flatfinger

    flatfinger Member

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    Lets just all pitch in, buy a community set of all these speakers and then let everyone keep them for 2 weeks each. Only problem would be letting ups have so many shots at them!!:eek: :eek: :cool:
     
  7. Pete Galati

    Pete Galati Member

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    You'd almost need to make the chart comparsons in 3D somehow.

    I know you can't do that, but something like:

    [​IMG]

    I like the American attempts at building British speakers a lot, but the ones I've tried so far don't sound as British as Celestions. Works for me so far though.

    Pete
     
  8. Jarick

    Jarick Supporting Member

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    What's the difference between "British" and "American"?

    I'm trying to quantify the basic properties of speakers so descriptions could be simple and meaningful. If "British" means more compressed and midrange-heavy while American is more dynamic and bass-heavy, that ought to be a common trait that can be shown on the graph.

    It's simplistic, I know, but it's a start. It's difficult to really accurately compare speakers because we hear sound clips using different guitars, amps, cab types, and most importantly, microphones and placement. A Royer 121 through Chandler on axis at 6 inches sounds a lot different than an SM57 through a Mackie board at 3 inches off axis and a U87 through a Grace 101 at 6 feet.

    But, like I said, the more input and test cases (i.e. more users), the better we can get. All other things equal, a Greenback will be more compressed and have more speaker distortion and be more midrangey than a CL80.
     
  9. Damon

    Damon Member

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    Here's my input:

    [​IMG]:D
     
  10. Turbozag

    Turbozag Senior Member

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    I haven't been able to A/B the speakers you have listed in real time, but I thought I would toss in my one observation...

    I swapped out a Mesa Boogie "Black Shadow" 12-inch speaker out of my Boogie Studio 22+, and put a Green Back in it.

    The difference was HUGE! The BS was stiff and lifeless, and the GB just breaks up easy and sounds SO much better. I up until then did not realize that swapping a speaker could/would make that big of a difference.

    I've heard good things about Scumbacks, anyone know how they would fit on this graph?
     
  11. mad dog

    mad dog Silver Supporting Member

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    The Brit vs. American characterization so simplifies things that it's almost meaningless, but not quite. In general, my ears tell me there's something to it. Brit stuff usually sounds more forward, bigger midrange and more in-your-face than let's say Jensens. A lot of the Weber vintage speakers go for a more even tonal emphasis.

    Maybe the classic Brit amplifier tubesets has even more to do with the perception than speakers. Beats me. I do know that the greenback I used brought that DRII to life. Great speaker. Whatever that Brit sound is, it clearly can benefit even the most retro American amp, like how the Blue complements a low-wattage tweed.
     
  12. Jon Silberman

    Jon Silberman 10Q Jerry & Dickey Gold Supporting Member

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    Interesting. Not an hour ago, I swapped the Black Shadow out of my Traynor YGM-3 Guitarmate (2XEL84, Deluxe Reverb-like circuit) and replaced it with a new Eminence GB12.

    Definite difference but I would not call one "better" than the other (just "different").

    The BS is louder, punchier, and more "immediate" (almost "in your face"). The G12 is softer, sweeter, and "sag-ier."

    Interestingly, the reason I made the change was to beef up the lower mids. I've A-B'd the two speakers before (in my Tone King Continental) and very much prefer the GB12 in that amp because the lower mids are so organic and woody. But I just didn't hear the same significant difference in the Guitarmate.

    I think this once again proves the sagacious counsel of amp builder Pete Cage: "There is no 'bad' speaker, only a speaker looking for the right application."

    As for which to keep in the Guitarmate, the jury's still out!
     
  13. Turbozag

    Turbozag Senior Member

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    Has anyone tried the Eminence "Red Fang" speaker?

    I keep hearing good things about these things. I'm considering trying one. I have a Fender Blues Junior with the stock Jensen.. Anyonee have a recommendation of "the" speaker for that puppy?

    Jon, I was perfectly happy with the Black Shadow until I went to the trouble of yanking it out and trying the Green Back. Glad I did!
     
  14. Jon Silberman

    Jon Silberman 10Q Jerry & Dickey Gold Supporting Member

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    I have a Red Fang in my Reverend 1X12 extension cab. I dig it but I'd be the first to admit I'm not a "Blue" expert so my take would be worth less than others around here.

    On the Blues Junior issue, after trying a host of different speakers in mine, I finally accepted the fact that the amp is not capable of performing on a level that would satisfy me so I sold it (and have never missed it).
     
  15. Turbozag

    Turbozag Senior Member

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    :eek:

    Well, I'm not "there" yet... I actually found a sound I kinda like in it... It was re-tubed with JJ tubes. But I am considreing trying another speaker in it...
     
  16. keith_t4e

    keith_t4e Member

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    I"m selling my Marshall cab with 80 watt celestions because they just don't break up the way I'd like. I'm going for lower wattage break up of a 25 or maybe even a V30.
     

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