A return to civility here, please?

Discussion in 'Acoustic Instruments' started by Bluedano1, Oct 29, 2018.

  1. Frozen Rat

    Frozen Rat Gold Supporting Member

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    Yes, David Dunning out of Stanford U. back in the late 90s. I read part of that paper. Seems that those with the highest opinions of their abilities are often the least adept at them and don't even seem to realize it. One wonders if the bias is based on real illusion or a systematic process of denial. I don't recall what the study had to say about that.

    The flip side of that study showed that the people with the greatest ability often didn't even fully recognize it in themselves. They were either humble or measured their own ability too conservatively.

    The upshot anyway is that you have to identify which of these two you are dealing with in order to gauge the quality of the information you are receiving.

    More to the point of what you posted: those who over-inflate their own confidence in their abilities almost never take kindly to being told about it, even if you avoid trigger words. Knowing why this happens with some people certainly helps me to not take everything too personally.
     
  2. andrekp

    andrekp Member

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    Two things need to happen, but won’t:

    1). People need to learn to read. Actually read. And understand what they read. Not take every little thing they read either completely literally, or as the reverse of what it says. Good luck with that.

    2). Quit taking every little thing as a personal insult that actually affects you, instead of some random noise that you are welcome to ignore. The mods don’t need to be called in to arbitrate every time someone says something “mean” to you. Act like the adults that you are and just realize that some random guy, that you don’t know, that you likely will never even meet, might have a manor different from yours and just leave it at that without getting the vapors. Good luck with that as well.
     
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  3. gibson3798

    gibson3798 Member

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    I think it's called "grow up".
     
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  4. Atmospheric

    Atmospheric Supporting Member

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    One person’s passionate opinions and outrage is another person’s incivility and hate speak.

    Changing the channel, even ignoring certain individuals is always an option.
     
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  5. themannamedbones

    themannamedbones Member

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    I had someone call me a snowflake because I didn’t appreciate some nasty comments said about Dicky Betts. Here’s the thing, if I just use the ignore button instead of trying to burn this individual, we are both better off. Just my opinion, I really like how much stuff I can learn here. A little drop of poison is not going to kill me.
     
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  6. Atmospheric

    Atmospheric Supporting Member

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    I tend to view someone who cannot process nuance as someone highly unlikely to ever offer information I will find interesting or usable. Ignoring them benefits us both, and the community at large. While I sincerely celebrate every person’s right to hold any opinion whatsoever, I am under no obligation to give all opinions equal weight.
     
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  7. themannamedbones

    themannamedbones Member

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    In a way they have done me a favor since there is often too much information here, so they help me thin the information stream. Finding the most valuable content
     
  8. Atmospheric

    Atmospheric Supporting Member

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    Exactly. Life is better when you can tune out the noise.
     
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  9. Bobbybigbucks

    Bobbybigbucks Member

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    I missed the pissing contests? Dayum, I'm going to have to spend more time here.
     
  10. PsykoPat

    PsykoPat Member

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    Why would people get so passionate about vacuum cleaners? I mean it's just....a vacuum cleaner. WTF...how could that possibly cause people to be upset?
     
  11. Tegridy

    Tegridy Member

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    A brief note on this topic. Some of you may have read the thread "purchasing from members" in the pub a few days ago, but it has been deleted.

    A little set up. I recently joined the forum solely to purchase a guitar that was listed. I don't usually participate in discussion forums for the exact reason the title to this thread reflects - lack of civility. To the story:

    I asked a simple question being if it was odd that a seller would not give me his phone number to discuss the sale, money transfer, shipping, etc. AFTER we had agreed on a price for a guitar. I don't recall ever purchasing anything of substance off the net w/o a cursory phone connect.

    The seller wanted "cash". No problem. I don't use pay pal (which isn't cash) and stated so in my original post, without reason, just stated so in the context of the phone conversation necessity (to me) to arrange the transfer of funds (wire or certified check) to the seller. I also wanted to get comfortable with the transaction being that I was sending the seller several thousand dollars.

    I get a barrage of posts basically telling me I was sub par for not using pay pal, as though I was, perhaps, dumb? Not one, but 5-6 posts on the first page of the thread with the same message. No one really answered the question, only criticized me for not using pay pal. Some of the responses were difficult to wrap my head around. I was like, really?

    Well the thread got out of hand as it kinda pissed me off, and the keyboard commandos piled on in full force. Regrettably I got caught up in it and didn't consider the source(s) and venue, and responded in the same fashion I was being spoken to. I made a comment that pay pal was a "commie" organization and I didn't need a third party in the middle of my deal to hold my money, and have to pay them do it for some conjured up fear of getting screwed. Then I made an off the cuff comment that folks who use paypal are "lazy". Things really went south after that one boy howdy. In the context of the thread, I meant lazy in the sense that you can't go to the bank and wire funds, or get a certified check? You just want to sit on your butt in front of a computer and buy stuff? Reading comprehension and interpretation were severely lacking.

    Several claimed by their posts it personally "offended" them and everyone else on TGP (strength in numbers I suppose) and came out defending pay pal as though they had stock in the company, like they were defending their own kids, and the crazy thing is pay pal had really nothing to do with the original post, and I don't care who uses it or not.

    So, in response to the OP here, unfortunately, folks sitting behind a keyboard in anonymity can spout off as they please with little to no ramification to what they say. It is like when teenagers start to drink and get a little froggy. We used to call it "liquid bravery". What it actually was, is "liquid stupidity". Unfortunately for many, they never learn or grow out of it. Same with the internet, like the teenager and alcohol, to some the internet is quite intoxicating, and they never grow out of their stupidity.

    I do know this, 99% of the guys on these types of forums would not speak or act like the do in person like they might here, because on internet forums such as this, they hide behind "the bravery of anonymity".
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  12. Frozen Rat

    Frozen Rat Gold Supporting Member

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    That's true. But it also gives people leeway to be honest. You put out your opinions on PayPal and others came in with theirs. Things can get heated in arguments, just ask the Romans who had to argue in court there. Just ask Socrates how heated arguments can get between individuals; he paid for his arguing ability with his life. You can call it lack of civility, which may be accurate, but it's a one-sided accusation that doesn't take into consideration the perspectives of all involved. When you mix together a bunch of different personalities there's going to be some clashes. I'd rather have that they the smooth, plastic sterility and boredom of an overly controlled dystopian-istic group conversation. I'd rather see honest exchange rather than false politeness. There are limits of course: like hate speech and bullying should be squashed.

    This all comes down to how much freedom do you want? Do you want total freedom or limited freedom? And how limited? It also brings about the admonition, "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

    If you want total freedom there will be chaos because everyone will act in self-interest with no fear of retribution for their ill behavior. So freedom has to have its limits and it's always a very dicey affair deciding where to draw the line. If you go too far then people cannot have honest conversations without the authorities exacting punishment (read about the religious police in Saudi Arabia).

    You quickly realize that freedom must be nearly total to work, but not actually total (as mentioned above: chaos). What that means is that you have to leave room for opinions you do not like. Why? Because who gets to decide what is appropriate and what is not? The minute a human gets to decide, there's bias. Do you want bias? I don't. That means you sometimes have to tolerate some pretty nasty stuff for the greater good of freedom that applies equally and truly to all. If you do not apply it equally to all, it's not freedom, it's privilege, which stems from the word "private" and private implies a walled off group of people who have "privilege" whereas everyone else does not. You then create a caste system within freedom, and the word freedom ceases to apply.
     
  13. Tegridy

    Tegridy Member

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    With all due respect, this is exactly how it all started. You did not thoroughly understand my post. I did not offer an opinion on pay pal until AFTER I was vilified for mentioning I didn't use it, mentioning it only as a side note. Being that the seller wanted cash, and pay pal isn't cash, it was moot anyway.

    The whole point of my original post in the other thread was the guy wanted "CASH" but wouldn't take a phone call to make arrangements to give him CASH. Pay pal had nothing to to with it until some folks here made it an issue.
     
  14. Bluzeboy

    Bluzeboy Gold Supporting Member

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    I read that thread.. it was a bit more than leeway to be honest and opinions on PayPal but that’s beside my point here.

    How about common sense freedom? Much like the old chestnut of yelling “fire” in a theater there is also the think before you post adage.
    In theory, we are adults here so I suggest folks act like it.
    You like xxx I like yyy you say xxx is great I say it’s overpriced and I only play yyy because blah blah.
    So far all well and good. Until someone starts with the you or I dont know what we’re talking about and inferring they have the “secret knowledge” proving both of us wrong.. and starts bashing one or both of us.
    This is where common sense freedom enters.
    In the end, it really doesn’t matter who likes. what or what is “better” as long as folks are playing and enjoy what they have. Right?
    So many of the arguments that I see are just useless to the original question or statement but seemingly internet people hate to be questioned on their opinions because After all they have the “secret knowledge “ we can only hope to obtain .

    As my aunt used to say when I was growing up “be pleasant even if they’re wrong”.
     
  15. SRQGuitar

    SRQGuitar Member

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    Written communication requires more care than face to face interaction. Ever have someone say something nice but you can tell they’re pissed off by their body language or the look in their eyes?

    My mom has said that I can tell someone to go to hell and they’ll ask for directions. I can also say something sweet and make it sound like I want to kill you. Those “skills” don’t really work on the internet.

    A lot of people have poor social skills and that is much more evident in written communication and you’ll have a much more peaceful time here on TGP if you just accept it and drop the expectation that everyone is going to be as awesome as you are.

    I know people in real life who I love dearly that I would never want to encounter on an internet forum.
     
  16. Frozen Rat

    Frozen Rat Gold Supporting Member

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    I think I did understand it, but understating it is not relevant to my reply. I was completely focused on the reasons why I think you should let it go and move on (regardless of actual content): freedom of speech is a delicate thing that you don't want to attack too often or too vigorously even if you feel deeply offended by others. Most responders here are giving reasons why certain posts or people should be toned down, made more civil, even suppressed, and I'm arguing that there's a larger issue at play here. I encourage everyone to look beyond the minutiae of the moment and consider the deeper ramifications of "making everything more civil." Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it. How would TGP change if all the posts were held to the standard of someone else's idea of civility? Would it be better? Would it be less exciting? Would it completely destroy the organic nature of the threads that makes this board so great? I'm sure we all have varying opinions on what would happen. This board could certainly be made more civil by the powers that be if they choose to do so, there's no law saying they cannot. The constitution only protects our freedom of speech from the government censoring of it. Everyone else is perfectly free to censor to their heart's delight.
     
  17. Frozen Rat

    Frozen Rat Gold Supporting Member

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    There are laws against that kind of inflammatory speech and those laws exist because the freedom of speech of one person is not protected when they use it to endanger the lives and freedoms of others. That rubric does not apply here. If the posts in question launched into hate speech, or doxing, or dunning someone to the point of the legal definition of harassment, then yes, those posts should be suppressed and I've seen it done, and wholly approve that they should be suppressed. Freedom of speech, as I mentioned before, cannot be total because chaos would prevail.

    But argument is different. Argument is the taking of sides in a debate and the word does not deserve the overall negative connotation it gets. Argument is typically a method of using inductive or deductive reasoning against a counter-argument. The idea is not to embarrass or denigrate your adversary, but to get him/her to agree to your point-of-view through logic. A successful argument leaves your opponent with no logical alternatives to disagree with you. Of course what you're referring to here is eristic argument (as there are many kinds besides the one I just mentioned) where the arguer is only interested in creating discord and has little interest in syllogistic constructs or any kind of reasoning whatsoever. Still, unless it is dangerous speech, it needs to fall under the umbrella of protection of speech because I telling you, you do not want that freedom arbitrarily suppressed when it's not one of the classically dangerous types of speech; the result would be a chilling of all freedoms. The freedom of speech is the most powerful freedom wepossess, everyone should protect it at all costs for their own good.
     
  18. Tegridy

    Tegridy Member

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    I think you are getting a little deep here with freedom of speech, infringement on speech, dangerous speech, censorship, and the ever so prevalent "hate" speech and any other retarded PC name we can think of.

    The crux of the matter is the mob mentality, the guys that have no reasonable add to the discussion, but like I said, sit in anonymity and say stupid s**t. Not a big deal, I responded because it was uncalled for, but it usually is, and was stupid enough to get sucked into it.

    That is it Froz, let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill. It is the state of things on the net. There happens to be a certain amount of nimrods on any discussion site, you can't escape it. Remember, there is the right way, the wrong way, and the way it is. On the web, that is the way it is.
     
  19. Frozen Rat

    Frozen Rat Gold Supporting Member

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    Only because this thread has brought up the notion of quelling or modifying the speech of others. I won't defend low quality speech, but I will defend the right for others to say what they wish. You came in rather late in the discussion, there's more going on than just what you brought up. And infringements on rights always start small, and build over time, so it's best to address such issues early on when they are still small. If nothing else, at least you're thinking about it now.
     
  20. Frozen Rat

    Frozen Rat Gold Supporting Member

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    Now that we've got those other matters out of the way: you deserved better. Give TGP a second chance. It's not always like that. There's plenty of solid folks here. Let's do a restart.

    Welcome to TGP, Tegridy. Tell us more about yourself and let's talk about guitars and playing.
     

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