AFX guys--are you as underwhelmed with "Tone Matching" as I am?

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by jpage, Nov 25, 2014.


  1. Gasp100

    Gasp100 Supporting Member

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    So your saying there is no way to spruce up your Ty tone for live use? I'd like to hear it, Ty is my #1 player.
     
  2. shredmiyagi

    shredmiyagi Member

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    One of my favorite patches was a tone-matched dreadnaught from the Axechange with some delay and dimension chorus...

    Some strange artifacts popped up occasionally, but it was a cool jazz tone.

    I did sell the Axe though. The amp choices were ultimately overwhelming. Kinda considering the FX8.
     
  3. stratzrus

    stratzrus Philadelphia Jazz, Funk, and R&B Supporting Member

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    If it functions as intended you should be able to match the tone from your own amps. I haven't tone matched myself, but having read many threads and listened to many clips, different players have had varying degrees of success when they attempted to do so.

    From what I've gathered, how you do it has a direct impact on the end results. If you want to use this function effectively I'd P.M. Cliff and see if he has any suggestions regarding the best way to proceed with the gear you have.

    In my experience, the understanding Cliff has of the unit has enabled him to get results many others have struggled to achieve. To me, this is not surprising. As I learned from my own experience, the tones are in the box, it's just a matter of finding the best way to get them out.
     
  4. fremen

    fremen Member

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    Can't wait for the updated version, and even better, a template preset. I'm currently tonematching a concurrent product (for my own use) and it works well in offline mode, but not in live mode (big phasey tunnel sound). And I'm doing exactly what you recommend, capturing the "cab" first as an IR, then tonematching.
    BTW is it better to use the synth block as a white noise generator in live mode, or to play guitar ?
     
  5. Eagle1

    Eagle1 Member

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    I agree that this feature is underwhelming in fact the only reason its there is the Kemper.
     
  6. fremen

    fremen Member

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    Wondering if the "comb filter" effect I have when trying to tonematch another guitar processor could be caused by the added latency...
     
  7. gtrnstuff

    gtrnstuff Member

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    I never heard a result I was happy with.
    Tone matched my own amps, and it added a phasey, unpleasant blanket over the tone.
    I've gotten better results just picking IRs (often my own) and tweaking basic virtual amp controls.
    But I'm one of those guys who still ultimately prefers real amps. I still hear a significant difference.
     
  8. gtrnstuff

    gtrnstuff Member

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    Only if it's in parallel mono with a signal with a different amount of latency.
    I hear that phasey, comb filtered thing every time I've used tone match block.
     
  9. fremen

    fremen Member

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    Problem solved. Don't know what was wrong in my template but with Cliff's Amp Matching Template it works very well. This is a tonematch of Lasse Lammert's lead sound (not a sound I would use, I selected it only for testing purposes)

    When the "Ref solo" button (bottom left) is "on", it's the Kemper ; when it's "off", it's the Axe. There's still a tiny difference in sound in the mediums but not one that bothers me

    http://pages.intnet.mu/fremen/Movies/Kemper_tonematch.wmv
     
  10. barhrecords

    barhrecords Member

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    I just tone matched one of my acoustic guitars using live mode.

    I have both generations of the Fishman Aura pedal and the Fractal tone match gives the same or superior results to these pedals.

    The process I use is:

    1. Set up a recording chain like I normally would to track an acoustic guitar. In my home studio that would be a Shure SM81 SDC mic -> Avalon 737 mic preamp.

    2. If I am trying to match an under saddle pickup to sound like the same guitar mic'ed, I tweak the Avalon until I get the mic'ed sound I want. Then tone match in live mode using the output of the Avalon as reference and the under saddle pickup as local.

    3. If I am matching to a different guitar, I recording the Avalon signal chain into Pro Tools. Here I set the Avalon flat, disable the EQ and track it. Then I apply post processing in Pro Tools to the guitar track to get the sound I like. Then I use the tone match in live mode with Pro Tools as the reference and the under saddle pickup as local. I "play along" with the Pro Tools track to do the tone match.

    Both techniques produce great results for me.

    Here are some things I've found:

    1. Beware of using stereo signals for the reference. This seems to introduce more comb filtering effects to my ears.

    2. Set the Amount and Smoothing to zero during the match process.

    3. Use the Amount and Smoothing after the match to fine tune the tone.

    4. I just play first position open chords and it works great for me (G -> Am -> C -> D). Be sure to allow enough time to hold a chord and it ring while you stop the match.

    I can usually tell by the graph display when the match is good or bad. A drastic curve of the graph means a redo.
     
  11. 3dognate

    3dognate Supporting Member

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    Ty's own live tone now, is pretty much extremely high gain boogie like tones... Nothing like the old Fender Elite/L5 days from "Out of the Silent Planet" and "Gretchen goes to Nebraska". But those recordings are tone gold...
     
  12. Gasp100

    Gasp100 Supporting Member

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    Yes he has changed his tone many times over the years. I like almost all of this tones into and including Ear Candy (which I believe were Marshall's?). I agree about his golden tone but I can't see why you could not start with the reference and if it's thin, just work with EQ to spice it up a bit for live.
    It doesn't have to be his tone dead on, maybe take it and make it something of your own.
    After reading this thread I'm going to try a few things:
    Tone Match my Budda SD18II
    Grab an IR of the cab (using a WGS ET-65 in that cab and does a really nice Marshall-esque tone).
    Work on building a killer acoustic patch I can use live with electric. That married with some things from the Fishman Triple Play could yield some really neat results.
     
  13. cliffc8488

    cliffc8488 Member

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    Latency shouldn't matter unless it's very great. If you are getting a phasey sound then something isn't set up correctly.

    The Tone Match block works extremely well when matching amps but you have to know how to use it. The problem is that most people don't do a simultaneous match. You MUST do a simultaneous match when in Live mode otherwise you'll end up with a phasey sound.

    [EDIT] I see you have found the issue. If you'd like to send me your original preset I can look at it to see why it didn't work properly.
     
  14. fremen

    fremen Member

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    Thanks for the offer Cliff ! Unfortunately I erased it, but I remember that I connected the output of the loop block to the input of the TM block, and in you template it's not the case... I can't really figure how this template works, specially alternating between reference and local using the expression pedal, but as it works, it's all that matters, all is well :)
     
  15. cliffc8488

    cliffc8488 Member

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    The Tone Match block itself allows you to select the reference source input. In the template I believe it is set to Input 2 Left. This eliminates having to manually route Input 2 into the block using the FX Loop block.

    The Reference Source audition is done by connecting the expression pedal to the Ref Solo parameter. When Ref Solo is on the selected reference input is routed to the output of the block.

    You only really need two or three blocks to do a Live Tone Match: amp, cab (optional) and tone match. I usually put a delay or reverb after the tone match block because I hate a totally dry tone but that's strictly optional.
     
  16. fremen

    fremen Member

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    Brilliant, I get it now, thanks !
     
  17. gtrnstuff

    gtrnstuff Member

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    Simultaneous match.
    Well there's no mention of that in the Tone Match manual pdf I have.
    As you said earlier, that would be good to update that.
    I may try it again now that I have that info.
    Unless I'm still confused, and followed the screen prompts the last time I tried and actually managed to do it right.
    But it didn't sound like it was right.

    BTW I am impressed with all the FW updates, but it sure makes the AxeII a moving target.
     
  18. cliffc8488

    cliffc8488 Member

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    Here's a pdf I did some time ago on amp matching. I'm having doc control rewrite all the tone match guides and manuals to get them up-to-date.

    www.fractalaudio.com/downloads/manuals/axe-fx-2/Axe-Fx-II-Tone-Match-Manual.pdf
     
  19. stratzrus

    stratzrus Philadelphia Jazz, Funk, and R&B Supporting Member

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    The posts above reflect what I have seen posted about tone match. Some have been able to use it to great effect and others have struggled with it. Hopefully Cliff's PDF will help to address the problems some users have been having.
     
  20. MaxTwang

    MaxTwang Member

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    Tone match works extremely well but you have to remember that the response of a tube amp is dependent on the gain setting - as is the response of the Axe. If you don't have the Axe's gain set correctly your tone match won't sound or feel right.

    The best way to set the gain is to roll off your guitar volume until your amp cleans up, then connect your guitar to the Axe and roll off your guitar volume and set the Axe's gain where the Axe cleans up the same as your amp. Double check the tone, you probably just lowered the Axe's gain setting and may need adjust the tone, and you're ready to Tone Match.

    Don't be afraid to tweak the Axe's model or add EQ to the Tone Match; you might be surprised to find the Axe can improve on the amp you're matching.
     

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