Amplike sounding Dirt boxes straight through cab sim, NOT preamps or amp sim pedals

Baminated

Senior Member
Messages
6,491
Curious, this would exclude pedals like amt amp pedals, Sans amp, character pedals, or even exclude preamps w/o cab sims like the boogie Vtwin
 
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Baminated

Senior Member
Messages
6,491
I don't get it: amplike and NOT amp sim? Can't a dirt box to be also an amp sim?
I mean pedals that are built with the intention of going through traditional amp, that sound like over driven amps like the OCD, the riot, menatone, etc, but instead of going into the front of the amp, just into a lone cab sim in direct into the board instead

I am not talking about Pedals built with the intention of replacing amps
 

Will Chen

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
6,826
Go to the effects forum and search amp-in-a-box. Tons and tons of threads.
 

Elric

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
5,026
I didn't even see a question in the OP. In fact, I'm not sure there was even a complete thought.

Amplike sounding Dirt boxes straight through cab sim, NOT preamps or amp sim pedals,
Curious, this would exclude pedals like amt amp pedals, Sans amp, character pedals, or even exclude preamps w/o cab sims like the boogie Vtwin
 

Baminated

Senior Member
Messages
6,491
I didn't even see a question in the OP. In fact, I'm not sure there was even a complete thought.
Dood there was a huge blue question mark icon in the title.
Will C. understood what was asked.
Ill play guitar, you go teach English class
 

shredmiyagi

Member
Messages
1,217
Well it seems you're a bit confused...

An OD/Distortion stomp is basically a stripped-down, simplified preamp section of an amp. It adds a gain-stage to your chain. Some amps have 4-ch. with multiple gain and preamp stages, so it's redundant using another OD.

Basically you're asking what it would sound like to run a Tube Screamer into a power amp and speaker with zero EQ/preamp-gain section. Or putting the OCD through an EHX Magnum 44 (a completely simplified power amp) into the cab of your choice (Marshall 4x12, let's say). Honestly, it will "work" fine, but you're just limiting tonal options. If you're gigging, you might as well just get the amp modeler (at least a Zoom MS50, best deal IMO) for some EQ/channel/reverb options.

Now to further answer your question, I use a Riot with my G3 Zoom's Fender amp (basically with flat EQ, mainly using the cab), and it sounds fine. Not gonna brag about my direct tone, it's serviceable/good, but not great. It sounds better once I put an EQ in the chain (which an amp sim provides, as well as a clean preamp/boost).

The Riot's an interesting pedal. Stacking it with other gain pedals/channels is a disaster, but it's great on a clean platform (Fender Twin) for a silky high-gain... even running it direct into my Palmer PDI09's cab Sim into my mixer (which has EQ/preamp), it sounds good. Again, not gonna replace a Suhr/Splawn/Mesa head with many EQs, channels, gain stages and gigantic transformers and tubes.... but it does well. So yes, the idea works fine.

The Riot's a 1-trick pony though. Doesn't do low/mid gain well...

To clear everything up, pedals with cab sims are just giving you more EQ knobs and gain stages to have more tonal options. It's not voodoo to bypass or double up on those options. Just need to find a chain that works for you. A poweramp's is simply to transparently boost your clean signal and send a speaker load. The power amp does play a key role in making good tube amps "feel" and cut better.

Riot -> Torpedo CAB (which has power amp modeling) with a good 4x12 IR would probably make for a very quality high-gain metal tone. If you're playing rock n roll or blues, ya probably want the Sansamp or something instead.
 
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jwnc

Member
Messages
152
I used a MI Audio Crunch box direct with a cab sim in my DAW and it sounded great, just some EQ and alittle delay and it sounded fantastic.
 

Will Chen

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
6,826
Well it seems you're a bit confused...

An OD/Distortion stomp is basically a stripped-down, simplified preamp section of an amp. It adds a gain-stage to your chain. Some amps have 4-ch. with multiple gain and preamp stages, so it's redundant using another OD.

Basically you're asking what it would sound like to run a Tube Screamer into a power amp and speaker with zero EQ/preamp-gain section. Or putting the OCD through an EHX Magnum 44 (a completely simplified power amp) into the cab of your choice (Marshall 4x12, let's say). Honestly, it will "work" fine, but you're just limiting tonal options. If you're gigging, you might as well just get the amp modeler (at least a Zoom MS50, best deal IMO) for some EQ/channel/reverb options.

Now to further answer your question, I use a Riot with my G3 Zoom's Fender amp (basically with flat EQ, mainly using the cab), and it sounds fine. Not gonna brag about my direct tone, it's serviceable/good, but not great. It sounds better once I put an EQ in the chain (which an amp sim provides, as well as a clean preamp/boost).

The Riot's an interesting pedal. Stacking it with other gain pedals/channels is a disaster, but it's great on a clean platform (Fender Twin) for a silky high-gain... even running it direct into my Palmer PDI09's cab Sim into my mixer (which has EQ/preamp), it sounds good. Again, not gonna replace a Suhr/Splawn/Mesa head with many EQs, channels, gain stages and gigantic transformers and tubes.... but it does well. So yes, the idea works fine.

The Riot's a 1-trick pony though. Doesn't do low/mid gain well...

To clear everything up, pedals with cab sims are just giving you more EQ knobs and gain stages to have more tonal options. It's not voodoo to bypass or double up on those options. Just need to find a chain that works for you. A poweramp's is simply to transparently boost your clean signal and send a speaker load. The power amp does play a key role in making good tube amps "feel" and cut better.

Riot -> Torpedo CAB (which has power amp modeling) with a good 4x12 IR would probably make for a very quality high-gain metal tone. If you're playing rock n roll or blues, ya probably want the Sansamp or something instead.
The bolded part is the issue trying to use the amp-in-a-box type pedals as a preamp. Builders realize the biggest market for these types of pedals are folks who use a clean tube amp, of which the most common are Fender and Vox (or boutique variants). These amps can sound stunning clean, but many (especially Fender) amps have a bright cap on the input which sounds great clean but can be ear piercing pushed by an overdrive/distortion. So, builders heavily voice the pedals for that intended usage. A pedal designed to hit a bright cap input and sound good will sound overly dark and dead hitting an impulse loader without some serious EQ applied to compensate. But...no way to know which work and which don't without trying a ton of stuff out.

Bogner Blue and Wampler ThirtySomething were wakeups for me regarding this type of pedal design. The're really only at their best hitting another preamp.
 

Baminated

Senior Member
Messages
6,491
Well it seems you're a bit confused...

An OD/Distortion stomp is basically a stripped-down, simplified preamp section of an amp. It adds a gain-stage to your chain. Some amps have 4-ch. with multiple gain and preamp stages, so it's redundant using another OD.

Basically you're asking what it would sound like to run a Tube Screamer into a power amp and speaker with zero EQ/preamp-gain section. Or putting the OCD through an EHX Magnum 44 (a completely simplified power amp) into the cab of your choice (Marshall 4x12, let's say). Honestly, it will "work" fine, but you're just limiting tonal options. If you're gigging, you might as well just get the amp modeler (at least a Zoom MS50, best deal IMO) for some EQ/channel/reverb options.

Now to further answer your question, I use a Riot with my G3 Zoom's Fender amp (basically with flat EQ, mainly using the cab), and it sounds fine. Not gonna brag about my direct tone, it's serviceable/good, but not great. It sounds better once I put an EQ in the chain (which an amp sim provides, as well as a clean preamp/boost).

The Riot's an interesting pedal. Stacking it with other gain pedals/channels is a disaster, but it's great on a clean platform (Fender Twin) for a silky high-gain... even running it direct into my Palmer PDI09's cab Sim into my mixer (which has EQ/preamp), it sounds good. Again, not gonna replace a Suhr/Splawn/Mesa head with many EQs, channels, gain stages and gigantic transformers and tubes.... but it does well. So yes, the idea works fine.

The Riot's a 1-trick pony though. Doesn't do low/mid gain well...

To clear everything up, pedals with cab sims are just giving you more EQ knobs and gain stages to have more tonal options. It's not voodoo to bypass or double up on those options. Just need to find a chain that works for you. A poweramp's is simply to transparently boost your clean signal and send a speaker load. The power amp does play a key role in making good tube amps "feel" and cut better.

Riot -> Torpedo CAB (which has power amp modeling) with a good 4x12 IR would probably make for a very quality high-gain metal tone. If you're playing rock n roll or blues, ya probably want the Sansamp or something instead.
Very enlightening thanks.
However , I wonder why it is that pedals which purport to be preamps (with cab sims defeated or none) that sound great through a power amp or active FRFR sound like **** through normal amps.
There's got to be some general distinctions between those and normal dirt pedals in that respect.
Could it be that the EQs on those preamp pedals disagree too much w/a normal amp?
 

BCy2k

Member
Messages
1,710
. . . why it is that pedals which purport to be preamps (with cab sims defeated or none) that sound great through a power amp or active FRFR sound like **** through normal amps.
I can think of several reasons. Have you ever tried to run a normal amp into another amp? Honestly, has that ever sounded good to anyone? Gain stage issues, impedance issues, etc. If I understand you correctly, it's bound to be a tall order to get something useable tone wise from such experiments. Depending on exactly how you're trying to connect them.


Could it be that the EQs on those preamp pedals disagree too much w/a normal amp?
Absolutely. It goes back to the amp running into another amp thing. If you run an eq system into another eq system, there's a lot of potential for things to get unwieldy, or completely out of control depending on what types of filters you're using. I suspect that better eq systems are 'tuned' (optimized) to their particular amp/preamp configuration, and trying to run from one into another has a lot of potential to obliterate whatever care went into making any amp circuit.

Is there a specific configuration of gear you tried and had problems with?
 

BCy2k

Member
Messages
1,710
FWIW - if it's of any help - I run a wah, an Analogman Bi-Comp, and two Foxrox ZIM OD pedals (2 ODs each - 4 total - each set to go from a clean boost to gradually more dirty settings) into an AMT SS-11a before hitting my Torpedo CAB. From there the signal goes into a Zoom G3x and a Zoom MS-70CDR to FOH or my Alesis Alpha 112 (sometimes both).

I only use the Ross clone compressor side of the Bi-Comp on my single coil guitars (no compression on my P-90 or humbucker guitars).

I can run up to 2 ODs at any given time into the SS-11a on it's clean channel and not need a noise gate. When I run the same into the SS-11 crunch or 3rd channel, I do need a noise gate (from the G3x). In any case, I'm able to get a useable variety of clean, to edge of breakup, to lighting the air on fire type tones, and lot's of things that are somewhere 'in between' all of the above. Each still being dialed in such that no matter how 'hot' I run it things remain articulate, and what I consider 'musical.'

The point I'm trying to make is I have a ton of gain happening from several different places on my setup, and it is possible to layer (or cascade) them in ways I wouldn't have thought possible, or practical had I not tried it. It is possible to get this kind of thing to work, but I did go through a lot of dialing & re-dialing to get it where it is now.

I think the most important thing to note is, I'm only using one actual preamp (SS-11). Even though my OD pedals have some of the attributes of a preamp, they're not true preamps in the conventional sense of the word, nor am I trying to use them as such. YMMV

Good luck with your idea.
 

gtrnstuff

Member
Messages
2,548
My last analog DI-to-FOH board was basically BB Pre>OCD> Tech 21 Liverpool set clean, using speaker sim. Followed by Line6 M9.

I really like the OCD for amp-like touch sensitivity.
Both BB and OCD were set fairly low gain, so stacking worked without going all mushy.
 

Baminated

Senior Member
Messages
6,491
Haha. Completely agree with Elric here. You (OP) can't be arsed to word a real, sufficiently precise question and basically expect people to even interpret your noun phrases in the right way before they can help you. And if someone points it out, you get grumpy.

Yeah, some people will (by chance) understand you - maybe because they're trained, having toddlers at home that go "eat!" and "ball?"... but if you want to address a bigger crowd, you may want to reconsider your way of communicating. ;)
Either that or the people that got it can actually play in the first place plus gig out, hence their immediate understanding.
I can certainly understand why this wouldn't be comprehended by grammar nazi non musicians who are out of their league.
 






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