Amps Elevated - Pros & Cons

[yardbird mac]

How many of you raise your amplifiers off the floor when playing? Do you use a stand, milk crate, tilt back legs, other device? What are the pros & cons of getting an amp off the floor?

I'm undecided on this subject. To me, my amps seem to have more punch and are a little more bottomy.

 

[Macaroni]

An Auralex GRAMMA is the way to go. It decouples your amp/cabs from the floor and gives you consistent tones from venue to venue, regardless of stage limitations.

If you elevate your amp/cab on a stand, you will most likely affect the bass response.

http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_gramma/sound_isolation_gramma.asp

 

[doublescale1]

but if you are micing the amp will that bass decouple effect be nullified? if all you are really using the amp on stage for is to hear yourself, and the close mic is sending it to FOH, that decouple thing should not really matter...am asking here - anyone done that and what are you thoughts on it. I know this has been covered before, and a search will get you back to that - however I did ask that same question on one of those previous amp-stand debates, way late in the thread and never got an answer - maybe this time - any FOH guys out there that can chime in?

 

[Macaroni]

The decoupling removes the cab/floor resonance/connection issues, ie: different stage materials, etc. It's more for the player to have consistent tone and not have to compensate for different stages. It will allow the amp's full bass capabilities to manifest, without the stage adding or taking away from it.

I don't think there would be any adverse affects re micing.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

My stands have a slight tilt-back angle, so I can hear my amps directly (I use two amps, in stereo). This does de-couple the amp from the stage, reducing apparent bass output

Pro: a more true and consistent amp sound, direct to my ears

Con: further distance for the amp to fall = more potential for damage

Pro: easier to reach the knobs, without having to bend over

Con: the tilt angle prohibits me from setting my beer on the amp

Pro: no beer spills in my amps

- Thom

 

[Analog Assassin]

I personally think that Gramma thing is a sham, or at least, no better than say, a milk crate. Put your cab on a milk crate or a chair, very little vibration will make it to the floor. In fact, my amp's casters, for the most part, decouple it from the floor.
It might make a difference for real large subwoofers, but I think for guitar amps, there's little benefit to be had. I DO believe in raising up the amp a bit on a stand, milk crate, or chair because you don't have eardrums in your knees.

 

[Teleman]

I like them on the floor.

 

[mikoo69]

for hearing purposes, having them elevated is nice. i find i play more dynamically when my amps are elevated, as i can play soft and still hear myself. when my amps are on the floor, i often overcompensate for my inability to hear and play louder/turn up. i've learned not to do this, but sometimes i just want to hear more guitar.

that being said, if i can get a good monitor mix with my some guitar in the wedges, im happy either way.

 

[jmoose]

- however I did ask that same question on one of those previous amp-stand debates, way late in the thread and never got an answer - maybe this time - any FOH guys out there that can chime in?

Yah, sure. Resident producer & FOH guy here.

IME it doesn't make much if any difference to the mic if the amp/cab is 'floated' or not. The speakers are putting out the same tone, mic picks it up in the same manner. End of story.

The whole reason to 'float' an amp with a stand, flight case, horrolux pad, or even some hockey pucks is to decouple it from the stage.

The proximity/boundry effect adds approximately 3dB of low end that's not really "there" for each corner the amp is in. So if its on the ground, that's 3dB. On the ground AND against a wall is a 6dB low end boost. Push it back into a corner too and that's 9dB of additional low end in the room that's NOT coming out of the speakers. Sort of like having the bass on 10 when its really on 3 or 4.

So that's how we typically get that whole "amp sounds great in the room but sounds like ass with a mic" trip. And that's the main reason to 'float' the cabinet on a stand... consistency and a more "accurate" tone from room to room.

Honestly, sometimes I decouple my amps and sometimes I don't. If I put the amp up on a stand... even a milk crate its usually to get it closer to my ears, I don't want it blasting at my ankles.

One thing that NEVER happens, floated or not is stuffing the amp into a corner or back, hard against a wall. If its a tiny stage and I have to shove the amp against a wall then I break out the hockey pucks. Otherwise, leaving about a foot and a half of space is enough... more is better.

FWIW - hockey pucks are preferred because they're made of neoprene. Same material that studio floors are floated on. Pucks are cheap... a lot cheaper then a stand or one of those Horrorlux grammas!!!

 

[Gretsch6136]

I hate lifting my amps. They gotta be on the floor or I'm not happy!

 

[Average Joe]

I like em up waist high so I usually put mine on a chair or the like. I can hear it better up there, I like not having the added bass it has on the floor AND I find it easier to work the feedback/sustain angle when it's at the same level as my guitar.

 

[TaylorPlayer]

FWIW - hockey pucks are preferred because they're made of neoprene. Same material that studio floors are floated on. Pucks are cheap... a lot cheaper then a stand or one of those Horrorlux grammas!!!

I never knew that, but living in Minnesota and having 4 kids that play or played hockey through all the school years, I got pucks coming out of my ears!

I have been using them to lift my amps off the floor for years because they are small, solid and easy to throw in a gig bag. Now I have a better explanation when my wife asks me why I have hockey pucks in the living room!

 

[A440]

thanks J. Moose! I've never heard of the hockey puck idea.

would leaving casters on the amp decouple a little bit? in some cases, I've taken off the rear ones to angle the amp up a bit. in most cases, I don't like the amp pointing at my head (just my pref).

in the past, I've done the milk crate/chair thing. on small stages, I don't like elevating the amp too much and this cuts down on the amp bleeding into the vocal mics and sometimes making it harder to hear the vocals onstage.

 

[doublescale1]

jmoose, thanks for the insight.

 

[eliot1025]

With my open back cabs I get a huge loss of low end when I decouple from the floor. So, that usually doesn't work for me. Even tilting the cab causes low-end loss.

 

[yardbird mac]

So... Am I reading correctly that even having the amp on its casters can cause decoupling and loss of low end response?

 

[Chuck King]

A few years ago I started putting my amp up on a stand, pointed at my head for rehearsals. The improvement in general room sound has been nothing short of remarkable. It was due, I think, mainly to being able to turn the guitar down because the amp no longer needs to fill the room indirectly from a position firing along the floor in order for me to hear it clearly, which reduced the overall noise level, which means nobody has to play as loud to be heard.

Of course there's less low end. But really, filling in the low end is not the guitar's job. That's what we have a bass for. We don't play real heavy music, but doing the regular pop and rock we play, I have never felt that the overall effect suffered for a lack of low end from the guitar.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

Of course there's less low end. But really, filling in the low end is not the guitar's job. That's what we have a bass for.

I agree entirely - let the bass player have appropriate reign over that frequency range. It makes for a much better mix.

The proximity/boundry effect adds approximately 3dB of low end that's not really "there" for each corner the amp is in. So if its on the ground, that's 3dB. On the ground AND against a wall is a 6dB low end boost. Push it back into a corner too and that's 9dB of additional low end in the room that's NOT coming out of the speakers. Sort of like having the bass on 10 when its really on 3 or 4.

In light of jmoose's post, let me propose a re-frame of the low-frequency changes most have noted...

Raising the amp does not cause a "loss of lows," but rather removes the artificially enhanced lows that resound from the stage/floor or walls.

- Thom

 

[dspellman]

An Auralex GRAMMA is the way to go. It decouples your amp/cabs from the floor and gives you consistent tones from venue to venue, regardless of stage limitations.http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_gramma/sound_isolation_gramma.asp

It doesn't completely decouple. Your amp doesn't have to make contact with the floor to have bass coupling occur. There are two kinds of coupling; acoustic coupling and mechanical coupling. The latter involves the floor itself becoming a resonating surface via contact to the amp itself. That can be pretty variable, depending on the resonance of the stage itself. The GRAMMA helps only because it makes you more consistent from stage to stage...

But you still have acoustic coupling going on -- reinforcement due to coupling with sound reflected from the stage. That's going to happen EVEN if you're on a box (it will change the frequency at which you're getting the coupling compared to if you're only a few inches off the floor on the GRAMMA, but won't eliminate it).

 

[dspellman]

A few years ago I started putting my amp up on a stand, pointed at my head for rehearsals. The improvement in general room sound has been nothing short of remarkable. It was due, I think, mainly to being able to turn the guitar down because the amp no longer needs to fill the room indirectly from a position firing along the floor in order for me to hear it clearly, which reduced the overall noise level, which means nobody has to play as loud to be heard.

I always have to wonder, though, whether the room has benefited from this, or if YOU have benefited from simply being on-axis with your speakers...

I've heard SO many guitar players with 4x12s who have NO idea what kind of rotten tone they're putting out simply because they're at a 45 degree angle to the thing and thinking they've got smooth sounds going on, when they're actually putting icepick treble into the ears of whoever's in front of the speaker.