Analog chorus with true bypass, no tone suck, possibly analog dry-through?

lefort_1

Nuzzled Firmly Betwixt
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
15,280
Considering ditching the analog qualification and looking at the JHS 3 Series Chorus. Having a vibrato on board is definitely a plus. I'm pretty sure there's no analog dry though possible here, it being digital, though correct me if I'm wrong. Wondering if there is any tonal shift on the core signal with this one.
Not to beat a Dead Comparison, but if you're willing to go digital, like vibrato, want a small package AND want a chorus from one of the masters of the genre
try Mr Black's Mini Chorus. Jack is sold out on his website right now, but I think I saw them at CoastSonic.com yesterday (who say they have a 15% off storewide... dunno if it applies to minis)


Very VERY little change in tone, a Mix knob (dry to Vibrato), and a lovely clean tone.
 

lefort_1

Nuzzled Firmly Betwixt
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
15,280
I would think that it is analog dry through in chorus mode. If it's digital, the vibrato mode won't (of course), but then it probably won't cause phase issues in a wet/dry rig any more than in chorus mode. Not all digital pedals digitize the whole signal. You could easily confirm that with an e-mail to JHS. I don't know why people ask here instead of just sending an e-mail to the company that makes the pedals.

Tonal shift can be very much prevalent in analog dry though pedals too, analog circuitry doesn't guarantee that there aren't "tonal shift". What analog dry through is good for is that it doesn't introduce latency.
Huh?
But, chorus a) works based on a 'phase shift' of sorts (albeit with a time offset that is the same for all frequencies), and b) chorus wouldn't work without a 'phase issue'. But it's a shorter shift (in general) so phasing issues should be moot (can't get 180 degrees out of phase if you're varying +/- 30 degrees... kinda/sorta.)

But no worries... it's not a day to nitpick stuff like this.
I gotta go get the chainsaw out and cut stuff up.

Later.
 

Bucksfan70

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
634
nux rivulet chorus. you can flash it to have a 3 in 1 chorus with a ce1, ace2 and a mxr stereo (non stereo) in 1 pedal. the ce1 is amazing!

 

drbob1

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
27,581
So, let's lay the "analog dry thru" to rest. An analog chorus HAS to have an analog dry thru! There's no digitization of the signal anywhere. So, you're mixing the delayed signal (by BDD, an "analog" device) with the real dry signal to get the chorus sound.

That out of the way, you want a true bypass chorus (which many of them, if not most any more are). Pretty easy to check.

Then you want minimal EQ changes. So THIS is where it gets difficult. The only BBDs left are the Panasonic "MN" series derived ones. They work fine, but they have the disadvantage that the clock only allows a 10:1 between its slowest and fastest speed. Remember, chorus wants a basic delay around 10-50 msec. If you do the math, getting say 20 msec out of a 3207, you're going to be running the clock at 25 kHz for a maximum frequency response of 11 kHz. Sounds good? Unfortunately, that would require a pre BBD and post BBD filter with a magically vertical slope (you can't let anything more than 11k in or out of the BBD). In the real world, once you start to get very high order filters you start to get more noise and phase issues. So, in the real world, most choruses top out at 1.5-3k, and you are going to notice some loss of brightness at that rate. As to the reduction of bass, that has, I suspect, got to do with not wanting to distort the circuit with the higher energies involved in bass notes, so there's a little high-pass filter as well.

The choices that folks make with those EQ changes determine much of the character of the delay. So, for example, the Small Clone/Analogman is fairly bright but loses more bass than the CE2, which is darker. A "bass" chorus might have more overhead to take care of more bass, but lose some un-needed top end.

So, now we come down the the eternal trade-off. Money vs tone. You can get a reasonable quality, SMD, BBD based chorus for less than $100. You can get a nice, thru hole, "boutique" chorus for less than $200. You can get a killer digital chorus with analog dry thru for less than $100. You can get a wonderful sounding digital chorus from JHS, Mr. Black, or a used Lovepedal for mid 100s and I guarantee you won't be able to tell its digital. Or you can go whole hog and get one of the truly amazing choruses that either emulate specific "old" versions, like the Deluxe Electric Mistress clones, or the CE-1 clones (both of which have better frequency response than many newer choruses) or new ideas like @Jack DeVille has built. I don't know for sure, but I assume that the extra money that goes into his newest chorus covers the cost of really carefully designed and built low pass filters, and accurate clocking.
 

skiltrip

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
2,162
Not to beat a Dead Comparison, but if you're willing to go digital, like vibrato, want a small package AND want a chorus from one of the masters of the genre
try Mr Black's Mini Chorus. Jack is sold out on his website right now, but I think I saw them at CoastSonic.com yesterday (who say they have a 15% off storewide... dunno if it applies to minis)


Very VERY little change in tone, a Mix knob (dry to Vibrato), and a lovely clean tone.
I’m really liking this suggestion right now. I dig that it has the mix knob on it. I didn’t mention that but that’s something I really like on my CH-1.
 

JBassTeleGit

Member
Messages
210
I was talking about the latency issues from a digital conversion of the signal and the phase issues that comes from the 1-5 ms of latency when using a wet/dry rig (the pedal into only one of the amps). It isn't modulated so the phase cancelations are dependent on frequency, certain wave lengths cancel out more than others.

In a chorus, the delay line is somewhere between 20-50 ms after the original signal and then modulated and I would call the interaction, between the wet and the dry in a chorus, "beating", more than phasing. The delay time is that long to cause less phasing and more "beating". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics).

I would say that flangers are closer to what you´re talking about where the delay time is shorter and the delayed, modulated line is closer, hence more phasing.

And yes, the vibrato setting on a chorus could have a much shorter delay time as it's not meant to be mixed in with a dry signal but then in a wet/dry rig it would probably sound closer to flanging.

So, the short answers:
a) No, it works based on beating, not a phase shift.
and
b) No, chorus wouldn't work with a "phase issue", then it would be a flanger.

Huh?
But, chorus a) works based on a 'phase shift' of sorts (albeit with a time offset that is the same for all frequencies), and b) chorus wouldn't work without a 'phase issue'. But it's a shorter shift (in general) so phasing issues should be moot (can't get 180 degrees out of phase if you're varying +/- 30 degrees... kinda/sorta.)

But no worries... it's not a day to nitpick stuff like this.
I gotta go get the chainsaw out and cut stuff up.

Later.
 

JBassTeleGit

Member
Messages
210
I suspected something like that. You love the pedal and they are maybe worth a bit in good condition so mods are out? (True bypass mod or a simple cap to ground from input/output to approximate the capacitance from the cables)
True bypass loop would be unintrusive but take up valuable pedalboard space?

I love my old Oc-2 but the buffers in that aren't nearly as good as in my digital Ch-1. Opposite problem to yours :)

It's an older analog one. Forget the exact year though. I love this pedal, I just don't like the brightness I get with the buffer. I prefer the naturally darkening I get with my single coil guitars from using true bypass pedals.
 

Jack DeVille

Member
Messages
2,437
So, let's lay the "analog dry thru" to rest. An analog chorus HAS to have an analog dry thru! There's no digitization of the signal anywhere. So, you're mixing the delayed signal (by BDD, an "analog" device) with the real dry signal to get the chorus sound.

That out of the way, you want a true bypass chorus (which many of them, if not most any more are). Pretty easy to check.

Then you want minimal EQ changes. So THIS is where it gets difficult. The only BBDs left are the Panasonic "MN" series derived ones. They work fine, but they have the disadvantage that the clock only allows a 10:1 between its slowest and fastest speed. Remember, chorus wants a basic delay around 10-50 msec. If you do the math, getting say 20 msec out of a 3207, you're going to be running the clock at 25 kHz for a maximum frequency response of 11 kHz. Sounds good? Unfortunately, that would require a pre BBD and post BBD filter with a magically vertical slope (you can't let anything more than 11k in or out of the BBD). In the real world, once you start to get very high order filters you start to get more noise and phase issues. So, in the real world, most choruses top out at 1.5-3k, and you are going to notice some loss of brightness at that rate. As to the reduction of bass, that has, I suspect, got to do with not wanting to distort the circuit with the higher energies involved in bass notes, so there's a little high-pass filter as well.

The choices that folks make with those EQ changes determine much of the character of the delay. So, for example, the Small Clone/Analogman is fairly bright but loses more bass than the CE2, which is darker. A "bass" chorus might have more overhead to take care of more bass, but lose some un-needed top end.

So, now we come down the the eternal trade-off. Money vs tone. You can get a reasonable quality, SMD, BBD based chorus for less than $100. You can get a nice, thru hole, "boutique" chorus for less than $200. You can get a killer digital chorus with analog dry thru for less than $100. You can get a wonderful sounding digital chorus from JHS, Mr. Black, or a used Lovepedal for mid 100s and I guarantee you won't be able to tell its digital. Or you can go whole hog and get one of the truly amazing choruses that either emulate specific "old" versions, like the Deluxe Electric Mistress clones, or the CE-1 clones (both of which have better frequency response than many newer choruses) or new ideas like @Jack DeVille has built. I don't know for sure, but I assume that the extra money that goes into his newest chorus covers the cost of really carefully designed and built low pass filters, and accurate clocking.
Theres no "extra" money. The unit is just expensive.
 

Coheed

Member
Messages
379
TC Electronic SFC
Great chorus plus added flanger and vibrato.
Old pedal but one that still stands as one of the best.
 

BenTobith

Symmetrically Hard Clipped
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
562
JAM Waterfall or the Ripply Fall if you want both phaser and chorus/vibrato in one. It’s the only one I’ve stuck with.
 

drbob1

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
27,581
Theres no "extra" money. The unit is just expensive.
Sorry, not intending anything that might sound critical. What I meant was, the difference in cost between a garden variety CE-1 clone and your piece is obviously a lot of work in the filtering department, at least.
 

npappas

Member
Messages
523
+1 for the T.C. SCF, it has a buffer but the buffer is great and sounds better than TB.

All-analog, MN-?3007?, very high headroom, input gain control, no mid bump, (okay maybe a TINY low-mid bump in the most extreme settings similar to a CE-1), it is honestly the clearest sounding BBD chorus I've heard. Seriously, don't get hung up on the buffer, it only improves things!!
 




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