Another Kemper/Axe FX debate...

mattball826

Member
Messages
20,798
With the right IR the Axe is tweak-free: finding the right IR for you is quite a bit like sorting through thousands of profiles to find the right profile for you - if you find the right IR or profile either device can produce amazing results.



There were some posts on the fractal forum about a specific Recto model and revision (something about the best ones were the last ones with an attached power cable). IIRC Cliff got one of these coveted Rectos which probably accounts for re-mimic'ing the Axe's Recto models.

i can go with this with one exception. many may want to think one ir can fit all models by that statement. not likely in my experiences. ymmv of course. so yeah it does take some doing and most users will thumb thru ir's mix ir's and kill tons of time. sometimes just because. other times yeah you hunt through ir's like crazy, mixing, etc. it kills a lot of hours. what works for recto wont work as well for mark series or marshall, and definitely not a fender type model. so yeah, the right ir with teh right model might work, but with 50+ amp models that's some work sorting ir's that work for each one. same can be said for thumbing and auditioning 100's of profiles. and many will because they can.

i was talking to a friend of mine who was at namm and talked with some reps of other products. they say they dont put irs in their units because they would have hoards of calls for support. iow they just dont sell a few thousand of their budget units. hundreds of thousands. that = a ton of support calls. so they find their best irs and make them work for their models.

it would be cool if one ir fit all, but it doesn't happen that way. ime, none of these units are tweak free. you have to spend a lot of time on them, especially if you have no prior experience.
 

Hapless

Member
Messages
429
I'm the "buddy with the Kemper." I let him try it out yesterday, and I think he was fairly impressed with it. There is another local, gigging guitar player with an Axe-FX II who will probably let him check that out as well. I'm of the opinion you can't go wrong with either of them, but I do like the ease of having the controls right there on the front of the unit with the Kemper compared with the Axe-FX. Someone earlier mentioned routing options. I have found for my uses as a gigging guitarist in a cover band that the Kemper's routing options are more than adequate.
 

ejecta

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,365
It must be really frustrating to have to deal with unwarranted criticism. I think 99.99 % of guitarists that have done any research or listened to sound files really do recognize how incredibly great the Axe is. If it hadn't been for the fact I wanted to get a profile of my Supersonic I would have gladly purchased your product because I think the Axe II sounds fantastic. I doubt in a blindfold test with an amp I wasn't familiar with I could discern my Kemper from an Axe II.


Not sure there is any company with 100% customer satisfaction so dissatisfaction is bound to happen with any product. Also not sure where you get the 99% number either. I'd highly suspect that's a bit high. Both the Kemper and AxeFX are cool pieces of kit but they aren't for everyone. Not sure why that bothers some people but I guess it does.
 

bateman

Member
Messages
43
It must be really frustrating to have to deal with unwarranted criticism. I think 99.99 % of guitarists that have done any research or listened to sound files really do recognize how incredibly great the Axe is. If it hadn't been for the fact I wanted to get a profile of my Supersonic I would have gladly purchased your product because I think the Axe II sounds fantastic. I doubt in a blindfold test with an amp I wasn't familiar with I could discern my Kemper from an Axe II.



http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...rk-v-iic-not-getting-good-results-solved.html



This illustrates my point, an endorsee has an issue with it not matching the amp IRL .... 100 posts later with insults there is an update

http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Axe-Fx_II_firmware_release_notes

Go through the release notes and search MIMIC ...most of the time they pertain to a thread where someone had an issue (rectos a few times)

Bravo for Cliff correcting it but don't crucify me for saying some amps don't match the real life settings



New member with a 1 month and 9 anti-Fractal posts to their credit. An expert without question. Gotta love the Internet.

It's more transparent than saran wrap.

He's pulling your chains folks. It's been done for years... and he'll assume another alt ego once this steps over.




I guess making a post praising another product is anti-fractal :dunno
Considering I own an axe-fx II but prefer it for effects than amp models (which some guys like petrucci use it for and use their real amps) makes me a troll?

I'd consider some of the tones I've got on the axe-fx quite superior to some experts I have heard in the past :O
 

MaxTwang

Member
Messages
3,690
on the other hand it's not really true that you can build an amp from scratch with a modeler, since there are only a certain number of parameters available to the user and they don't represent the entire model but merely a fraction of it. These parameters allow for variations of that model, nothing more.
the basic models are developed in a lab by always the the same designers or designer which automatically leads to a signature sound.

while you also depend on the user that made a profile, at least you can choose between dozens or even hundreds of designers - or even better, make your own profiles.

Are you saying the Kemper has an infinite number of parameters, the Kemper's mic pre is completely neutral and the profiling/playback processes have not been influenced by the designer in any way? If so great job, hang up your hat and call it done!

My experience in the analog/digital signal modeling industry has left me with the impression that a simulation can only model that which it's programmer has designed it to model - and a simulation is always influenced by assumptions made by it's designer/programmer. Through refinement simulations can become more accurate but perfection is statistically improbable.
 

Scott Peterson

Co-Founder of TGP and Administrator
Staff member
Messages
37,801
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-f...rk-v-iic-not-getting-good-results-solved.html



This illustrates my point, an endorsee has an issue with it not matching the amp IRL .... 100 posts later with insults there is an update

http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Axe-Fx_II_firmware_release_notes

Go through the release notes and search MIMIC ...most of the time they pertain to a thread where someone had an issue (rectos a few times)

Bravo for Cliff correcting it but don't crucify me for saying some amps don't match the real life settings








I guess making a post praising another product is anti-fractal :dunno
Considering I own an axe-fx II but prefer it for effects than amp models (which some guys like petrucci use it for and use their real amps) makes me a troll?

I'd consider some of the tones I've got on the axe-fx quite superior to some experts I have heard in the past :O

Not my first rodeo, I've seen you before with a different name. I'm not a newbie when it comes to the game. You aren't fooling anyone.

Sorry, but newbie to this forum, every post knocking the Axe-FX so far... walks like a duck. :munch

Tell you what - since you have posted you have an Ultra, an Axe-FX II and a Kemper - post a clip of each - same lick - and a picture of your axe fx II, your Ultra, and your Kemper with a piece of paper in front that says Batemen 3-30-2014.

You do that, I will publicly apologize to you.
 

bateman

Member
Messages
43
Not my first rodeo, I've seen you before with a different name. I'm not a newbie when it comes to the game. You aren't fooling anyone.

Sorry, but newbie to this forum, every post knocking the Axe-FX so far... walks like a duck. :munch

Tell you what - since you have posted you have an Ultra, an Axe-FX II and a Kemper - post a clip of each - same lick - and a picture of your axe fx II, your Ultra, and your Kemper with a piece of paper in front that says Batemen 3-30-2014.

You do that, I will publicly apologize to you.


I'll post up a pic & clip tomorrow :)
Not looking for an apology either just stating my experience.
Any clip preference? (bass/drums etc) I remember reading where Cliff could pick out the kemper everytime so this could be interesting although I cannot find the post now.

I did find the pick attack post but it looks like it has been deleted and only in quotes

I thought every post I made was slagging the axe-fx also?

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/17339080&postcount=209

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/17339624&postcount=211

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/17340388&postcount=216
 

bateman

Member
Messages
43
One more thing...is there even a point posting a clip?

Because if you consider me a troll I'm sure you will think I'd be biased to make one brand sound better than the other etc

Anyhow I'm open to suggestions
 

Scott Peterson

Co-Founder of TGP and Administrator
Staff member
Messages
37,801
I'll post up a pic & clip tomorrow :)
Not looking for an apology either just stating my experience.
Any clip preference? (bass/drums etc) I remember reading where Cliff could pick out the kemper everytime so this could be interesting although I cannot find the post now.

I did find the pick attack post but it looks like it has been deleted and only in quotes

I thought every post I made was slagging the axe-fx also?

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/17339080&postcount=209

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/17339624&postcount=211

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?posts/17340388&postcount=216

One more thing...is there even a point posting a clip?

Because if you consider me a troll I'm sure you will think I'd be biased to make one brand sound better than the other etc

Anyhow I'm open to suggestions

Never called you a troll, nice straw man. I called you an alt. You post legit proof you have an Ultra, II and Kemper - I apologize. That simple. I do not care how you make anything sound; I care that you can support your claims. I'm a believer in context and integrity; given your claims and 'focus' - your obvious similarity to some past posters here and on various boards begs for some sort of clarity. I've asked. Proof is in the pudding.
 

hippietim

Member
Messages
6,861
I had a Kemper but decided to stick with the Axe-FX II. As you read this, apply liberal use of "for me" or "in my opinion".

For me, the Axe-FX is far less cumbersome to use. I think of the grid as my pedalboard to the amp and then connect the "wires" how I want. You literally plop down effects and amps on the grid and route them the way you want. Navigating the rest of the user interface is much more intuitive on the Axe-FX than the Kemper. I found editing on the Kemper to be tedious and a bit annoying.

The Axe-FX has incredible support for controllers. And I don't mean MIDI foot controllers or expression pedals. I'm talking about things like pitch, envelope, LFO, etc. These are incredibly powerful. One of the most popular features of the old TC delays was the ducking delay. With the Axe-FX you can make almost anything "ducking" (or reverse ducking). For example, by using the envelope controller you can make a phaser mix increase or decrease ring - this is fantastic if you want the phaser to stay out of the way while you chug a rhythm but start to swirl away when you let a chord ring. Similarly you can increase the gain of an overdrive as you play higher notes to give you a little more kick during a solo.

As for amp modeling, they both sound kick ass. To me, debating which is better is a waste of time.

The one thing I really, really, really did not like about the Kemper is how the gain and tone stacks worked. They didn't behave like the real amp at all. Not even close. For instance, if you loaded a nice clean Twin profile and then wanted to take it to that place that a real twin goes when you get the volume up to 7 it was really hard. The Kemper would deliver metal levels of gain on a Twin amp which is completely unrealistic. And the bass/mid/treble don't work like the amps in the profile - consider an old Marshall where you often want to drop the bass to almost 0. If you do that with the Kemper you end up with a thin tone with no low end but a real Marshall just opens up the mids and gets creamy. So you have to do profiles of each amp at whatever gain and EQ settings you wanted.

Running a Kemper into a traditional guitar cab never sounded good to me whereas the Axe-FX sounds amazing. Perhaps Kemper has doen a better job recently of the amp/cab separation - I haven't kept up with it.

Effects were hands down better on the Axe-FX. My understanding is that the Kemper has improved so perhaps this isn't as much of an issue as it was earlier.

Both products have good fan bases and support.
 

CKemper

Member
Messages
172
Are you saying the Kemper has an infinite number of parameters, the Kemper's mic pre is completely neutral and the profiling/playback processes have not been influenced by the designer in any way? If so great job, hang up your hat and call it done!

My experience in the analog/digital signal modeling industry has left me with the impression that a simulation can only model that which it's programmer has designed it to model - and a simulation is always influenced by assumptions made by it's designer/programmer. Through refinement simulations can become more accurate but perfection is statistically improbable.

Yes. We - and those who heard an A/B comparison - call it done. Those who have not have the chance to test it must have necessary doubts. That is the status quo since two years.

The profiling process is based on assumptions, for sure. But I don't remember any parameter that is predefined by us.
 

AZG

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
2,127
LOL, nice to see this thread went as well as I predicted in the first few posts.

Having owned both side by side I can say they both have great amp tones. If you can't quickly get great tones out of both units it's a user issue, not a problem with the units. Buy the unit that best fits your needs and you should be very happy. For me the Axe II was the better fit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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bateman

Member
Messages
43
Never called you a troll, nice straw man. I called you an alt. You post legit proof you have an Ultra, II and Kemper - I apologize. That simple. I do not care how you make anything sound; I care that you can support your claims. I'm a believer in context and integrity; given your claims and 'focus' - your obvious similarity to some past posters here and on various boards begs for some sort of clarity. I've asked. Proof is in the pudding.

OK here is the picture
 

bateman

Member
Messages
43
Sorry to see this drift off from the OT

I gave my input someone commented that with the axe you can turn the eq etc and it matches the amp and I stated it didn't match for me in my experience on some amps.

I'm not the first nor probably will I be the last that mentioned their findings of ABing amp vs Model being different. I've already pointed out a 'power user' saying the same thing and a revision was done.

Even someone in this thread said the same below yet nobody asked him to prove himself.

The Rectos in the Axe II underwent several changes after they were supposedly mimic'd (in fw10 I think it was?) as they were a bit off....

The later revisions sounded better, but I never could get as close to the real thing as I wanted for sure...




No one could answer how the mics were modelled either.
I'm interested considering how many places you can put a mic to a speaker and the resulting sound will change.
(That is why I wonder if it is a frequency response of just the mic itself)


I will also state I have never posted on this forum before about digital gear!

I remember posting back around 2005ish about trainwreck amps but that is it.

If you are still interested in clips that will have to wait a few more days or the weekend at least if I am going to build patches etc.

Like I said I'm not sure what you want...ABing? Just to hear my playing?

But judging on this....reaction I'm sure its pointless.

I wonder if I had of stated I prefered the Axe to the Kemper I would have been asked to post pictures etc....I have a feeling.....no lol.

Anyhow maybe its better to PM me than watch this thread go more OT.
Again I apologise but I gave my honest opinion...user error who knows.

If I get the chance in the future I'd love to do a video of my findings.
 

ejecta

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,365
gif-stewartawkward.gif
 

Scott Peterson

Co-Founder of TGP and Administrator
Staff member
Messages
37,801
OK here is the picture

Nice try, but no dice. All the date, camera and geo is stripped from the metadata in all three of your photos in your photobucket. The paper is photoshopped in - see the ELA view below. Nice try, but you are not fooling anyone that doesn't want to be fooled.

I invite anyone doubting my findings to download bateman's photos directly and then run them through fotoforensics site themselves. It is free. http://fotoforensics.com
http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=3c5623e49e1dc91f05bd5e4d927236307e5b5a6b.106801

analysis.php


Your second shared photo below is even more obvious:

analysis.php
 
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Der JD

Member
Messages
378
i can go with this with one exception. many may want to think one ir can fit all models by that statement. not likely in my experiences. ymmv of course. so yeah it does take some doing and most users will thumb thru ir's mix ir's and kill tons of time. sometimes just because. other times yeah you hunt through ir's like crazy, mixing, etc. it kills a lot of hours. what works for recto wont work as well for mark series or marshall, and definitely not a fender type model. so yeah, the right ir with teh right model might work, but with 50+ amp models that's some work sorting ir's that work for each one.

I agree. Dependence on IRs was always one of my biggest issues with the Axe. Same could be said for back in the day when I was using plugins. Essentially, you have to find an IR that works well with your choice of amp AND at the settings you have on the amp. And then if you can't find your tone you're left wondering "is it the IR, or should I mess with some other settings on the amp model?".

I greatly prefer how the cab is "baked in" the profile with the Kemper. Makes a lot more sense to me.

1. Person dials in amp
2. Person uses cab, mics, and mic placement that capture the intended tone
3. KPA captures it all

RATHER THAN:

1. Dial up an amp model
2. Try to find a suitable IR that captures the intented tone

With the Axe, it's a shot in the dark. Even if you know what you're looking for, say a Mesa V30 cab, that doesn't mean you'll end up with your desired tone because of how much influence the mic and mic placement have.

I tried thousands of different IRs/IR mixes with the Axe. Extremely time consuming. There are those who say auditioning profiles is equally time consuming. That wasn't my experience and I believe the reason why is that a lot of the profiles I use were made by experienced pros in a studio. Amp, cab, mic...it's all there. All in one. No guesswork.
 




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