Another Open Jam. Cool Easy But Fun Backing.

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Tag, Mar 23, 2020.

  1. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    I get all of that now, with the exception of just one thing.

    Why do you treat a i chord as Dorian?

    Or in other words, why on a G- blues are you thinking G Dorian on the i chord and not Aeolian/Natural Minor?

    Can't tell you how much that messes me up. That's why it takes years to get all of the lines under your fingers so you don't have to think.
     
  2. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Because all notes work. The 6th does not want to resolve. You can play Aeolian of course, but that 6th really cant be held.
    It gives it a feel like it's the flat 9 of the V chord. It's the same reason on a static (non functioning) 7th chord you play lydian b7. All notes are stable. Same with Lydian on a maj 7.

    If you follow this, your playing will explode.
    Remember when you go to the iv chord, it's a NEW KEY. You are now in C minor, and you can play off of either G minor as the minor v chord of C, or G7 to give you pull back to C minor.
    These are the "out" notes you hear jazz players playing on blues tunes. Your guy Scofield does it all the time. Remember the video I did for you showing the resolution from the flat9 of the V chord to the 13th of the tonic chord? Here it's a great sound to use from the i chord to the iv. So approaching the iv chord you make the G minor a G7b9, then resolve to the 13th of C-7. So its Ab on the G7 chord to A on the C minor chord. Now your on C-7, so play some V-i lines to C-. Then, when it is going back to Minor, you superimpose D7 over the C-7 giving you V- i back to G DORIAN. So you can use the b9 of D7 (Eb) to the 13th of G minor here. (E). Now you are getting some great movement and cool sounds!!
    This is jazz blues.
    A great one to get this in your ear is this Benson song. This is the exact song Richie Hart had me transcribe to learn this stuff.
    Not to fast, and extremely tasteful and melodic.


     
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  3. DanH8482

    DanH8482 Supporting Member

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    Cool, I'm going to be listening to a lot of this Benson album now. The first line of his solo (after his intro lick) is an Ebmaj7 arpeggio, and he plays the b6 in that line, not dorian. Very cool!

    I recently transcribed Jimmy Herring's solo on "Red Wing Special," which is a B minor blues, same changes as the Benson and the track for this thread, but with a second set of changes after the blues. [EDIT not quite the same as the Benson] He uses almost exclusively melodic minor lines and minor 6 sounds over the i and iv chords, using the half-diminished shapes/sounds from the "family of four." His solo only goes over the bVI V7 turn around twice; on the first one seems to use the altered scaled and blues scale over the V and the second time he plays a half-dimished arpeggio from the b7 of the V chord. That was a little eye-opening for me, playing half-diminished from the 7th of the V, almost like you talking about playing dorian from the b7.


     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
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  4. fingertip

    fingertip Silver Supporting Member

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    I only know enough to disagree about this being easy. I thought if we are playing in G- then the real key is E. I want to be in this room, but I think I need to find a transition.
     
  5. ethereal cereal

    ethereal cereal Wave upon wave of demented avengers... Silver Supporting Member

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    Would you be willing to share your transcription? There are some great lines in that tune! Jimmy is a monster!
     
  6. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Why E? Do you see an E chord anywhere??
    Its G-. (Exactly what my teacher use to tell me when I asked him the same question) :)

    Think Oye come va. ii chord with a 4 7th.
    A-7 D7 right? That's as minor as you can get.
    DORIAN! Then when it goes to C minor, change key!!! You are now in C minor and the 4 chord would be F7. DO NOT THINK you are on THE 4 CHORD OF G MINOR, you have switched keys! Play C dorian over that C- chord! This is the huge difference between rock "blues" and jazz blues. You are playing the changes, not locking yourself into a "Key" of a song.
     
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  7. DanH8482

    DanH8482 Supporting Member

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    Sure, send me your email in a pm and I’ll send it. I have to finish writing out the first half since I had memorized it without writing it at first. I’ll finish it up tonight.
     
  8. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    And why is he playing the b6th there? Listen closely to the line and report your findings.
    Hint: It is exactly what I have been preaching, and why so many guys get confused on this.
    Listen to my take in the op. I do exactly what GB is doing there. This also is why my teacher was so great. He knew I was hearing things incorrectly, and was going to train my ear to hear it right. This song puts you dead on track.
     
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  9. ethereal cereal

    ethereal cereal Wave upon wave of demented avengers... Silver Supporting Member

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    PM sent, thank you so much!
     
  10. DanH8482

    DanH8482 Supporting Member

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    I've only gotten through that first chorus, but the first b6 (Ab) is just a passing tone over the C-, but in that fourth measure, he hits the Ab as the b13 of C7 to F-, as expected.

    EDIT - seems like he hits the Ab twice in the second bar, maybe implying a quick change to the iv chord in the second bar? It almost seems ghosted, I could only really hear it when I slowed it down a bit.


    My ear is so used to not hearing that Ab until the iv chord, that it stands out so obviously over the i chord. My experience in jazz is limited compared to you and many others here though, so maybe if I continue to dig, I'll find it more often.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
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  11. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Hes playing C Harmonic minor, or more accurately, superimposing G7 b9 over C-7.
    That's why I said listen closely to the line. You can clearly hear the g maj arp at the end of his phrase, and during it. So hes playing V-i BACK to C-7. Hes not playing ON that C minor chord. No Aeolian mode.
    :beer
     
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  12. DanH8482

    DanH8482 Supporting Member

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    Cool stuff! I wouldn't have thought of it that way because I was hearing the G triad as the start of the next phrase. But now, that you've said it, its easy to hear it as punctuation. Which then makes the Ab triad to Db melodic minor/C altered even cooler as its a continuation of the ending his first phrase.

    Sorry to hijack the thread!
     
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  13. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    That's it! And the C altered brings you to the F-!
    And then listen to see if he plays C7 alt lines over the F-. Cant remember, but chances are very good he does!
     
  14. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    Thanks for that Tag.

    Makes sense to me now.

    Off topic - but that whole album is awesome.
     
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  15. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    This is something that I assume he's only going to do if there's time?

    For example he'll do it if he's got 4 bars of C-7 before he get's to the F-7, rather than if he's only got 2 bars of C-7?
     
  16. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    He will do it anytime, and plays right through chords and it still makes sense. That's why chord scale goes out the window. That's why the maj7 works on the dom 7 chords. Its playing a different chord right over the correct one and having it sound perfect. Then you transcribe it, and go WTF?? These notes are all wrong! :eek:

    You are going to experience all this once you start to do the work.
     
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  17. fingertip

    fingertip Silver Supporting Member

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    Right! Key of the moment. That's what my teacher keeps telling me. I was indeed playing C dorian over C- as you said and I'm breathing slower now.
     
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  18. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    I've been thinking about this and I've realised that I actually never hit the natural 4th/11th at all (other than a passing tone to a maj3rd).

    Don't know why? Suppose I've just subconsciously always avoided it without knowing the technical reason why.

    I don't hit a lot of #11s though. Need to get some more of that into my playing. Never really considered a held #11 over a maj7th chord a pleasing sound to my ear.
     
  19. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    It's not done all that much. ( Holding #11s on a Major7 tonic chord) At the end of a song or solo, and or depending on the melody, it can sound really good.

    The #11 on a 7 chord sounds great though.
    Hold that baby for all its worth!
     
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  20. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    I'll experiment around with that.
     

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