Another Thread on Modeling (A Theory) (I'm Tired of These Threads)

WillLane

Member
Messages
1,983
I still don't think amps are on their way out, at least not for a long while, but I do have a theory on the disdain from modelers from much of the guitar playing community. This theory is much clearer to me after having watched Rhett Shull's recent video where he asks Joe Morgan, Dave Friedman, Mike Soldano, and Pete Arends their take on modelers. And even the most recent post in "Are amps on the way out?" somewhat confirms this. Throughout that thread, I'm sure there are many other cases like this.

The theory: So many people's impression of modelers are through headphones or direct into PA system, not through a real guitar cabinet moving air. Experiencing modelers in this way is a horrible and unfair first impression. So many people claim that "there is something magical about a real amp in the room", and they are right; the speaker moving air is integral for the player. However with modelers, they are generally run direct into the desk and this is not a fair way to experience a modeler.

Run your tube amp backstage/in another room and you'll experience the same thing; the guitar feels a bit more lifeless and less "energized" when the speaker isn't in the room with you. The lack of speaker/amp interaction is not a problem exclusive to modeling, but it seems to be attributed to modeling the most. And, that problem is often used as ammunition against modeling when it isn't a problem that modeling directly causes.
 

jvin248

Member
Messages
5,286
.

I've seen some recording studio setups where the cabinets from tube amps are in an isolation box in a noise insulated room in the garage -- so the studio player doesn't have angry neighbors all the time.

So less of a difference on the tube side vs modeling or pedals or solid state amps.

.
 

Crash-VR

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
5,048
I still don't think amps are on their way out, at least not for a long while, but I do have a theory on the disdain from modelers from much of the guitar playing community. This theory is much clearer to me after having watched Rhett Shull's recent video where he asks Joe Morgan, Dave Friedman, Mike Soldano, and Pete Arends their take on modelers. And even the most recent post in "Are amps on the way out?" somewhat confirms this. Throughout that thread, I'm sure there are many other cases like this.

The theory: So many people's impression of modelers are through headphones or direct into PA system, not through a real guitar cabinet moving air. Experiencing modelers in this way is a horrible and unfair first impression. So many people claim that "there is something magical about a real amp in the room", and they are right; the speaker moving air is integral for the player. However with modelers, they are generally run direct into the desk and this is not a fair way to experience a modeler.

Run your tube amp backstage/in another room and you'll experience the same thing; the guitar feels a bit more lifeless and less "energized" when the speaker isn't in the room with you. The lack of speaker/amp interaction is not a problem exclusive to modeling, but it seems to be attributed to modeling the most. And, that problem is often used as ammunition against modeling when it isn't a problem that modeling directly causes.
This is very true. There’s nothing like the amp in a room. It makes hearing a mic’d tone very challenging at times. Bright and brittle sounding and feeling. The modelers do nail that tone.
 

LaXu

Member
Messages
6,253
The moment you use cabinet sims you have changed the situation to effectively the equivalent of listening to the amp in the control room via studio monitors. Doesn't matter if you are using a digital modeler + IRs, a miced guitar cab or a tube amp into a reactive load and IRs, that's the sound you are getting and it is different from listening to a real cab in the same room. I don't even bother with tube amps and reactive loads because to me the sound and feel is pretty much the same as just using digital modelers and modelers are just more convenient for direct recording or silent practice uses.

For non-recording, non-headphones uses I still prefer a real amp and real guitar cab. They are more straightforward to use and I don't need a million sounds, just a couple that I can get from a good amp. With this setup you do need volume, ideally at least about 95-100 dB @ 1m for it to sound amazing. 90 dB is still good, 85 dB is alright and going under 80 dB you will be hard pressed to tell a difference between a tube amp, modeler or solid-state pedals into a clean amp. Going above 100 dB it doesn't sound better but just gets louder.

This volume thing has nothing to do with the amp either. I tried running my Bogner Goldfinger 45 SL through a Fryette PS2 and adjusted the master volume and compensated with the Fryette volume knob to play at the same volume level. Without powertube distortion (which is not desirable with this amp anyway) the sound was exactly the same no matter which way master and PS2 volume was set for the same level as measured with a decibel meter. Turning the actual volume level higher from either device was what made the difference so it is about how the speakers are driven and how we perceive sound at different volumes.
 
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964
I'd add here that, apart from modelers' convenience and versatility for gigging, I think they're going to have a very important role in introducing beginners or players without a lot of disposable income to different kinds of amp sounds and how to dial them in. I can easily imagine a day when most kids buy a modeler instead of an amp with their first guitars, learn what kinds of sounds they like and how to tweak them, and then, when they're a bit older and have some cash or start gigging a lot, buy the amps they've studied and grown to love via their modelers.
 
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themightyjay

Member
Messages
802
Okay, so modellers may not do the “amp in the room thing” as well as a tube amp.

But really it doesn’t matter. The audience hears the mic’d signal, lots of players hear through stage monitors or IEM’s, if you record you hear the mic’d signal. If you listen to your favourite songs you hear the mic’d signal.

It’s not really a question of wether a model can replicate an amp in the room, it’s a question of why people still care.
 

middy

Member
Messages
1,320
If you’re going through a power amp and a real guitar cab anyway, then what’s the point of the modeler? You think a Marshall preamp through a class D power amp and a 1x12 cab is going to sound anything like 4xEL34s through a 4x12? It’s not.
You don’t need a dozen crappy amp simulations. Just get a decent amp and a few good pedals and find your sound and get on with playing guitar.
 

somedude

Member
Messages
7,603
So to justify their purchase to themselves, and to others, they can't overcome the need to mouth off about why their personal choice is superior and how tube amps are dinosaurs on their way to oblivion. Some of the more insecure one's are aggressive about it and their tedious repetitive threads often turn in troll fests as the insecure and defensive turn out to get angry for no reason.
While I don’t typically agree with blanket statements, there is some substance to why various forums banished them to their own corner to argue amongst themselves.
 

somedude

Member
Messages
7,603
I'd add here that, apart from modelers' convenience and versatility for gigging, I think they're going to have a very important role in introducing beginners or players without a lot of disposable income to different kinds of amp sounds and how to dial them in. I can easily imagine a day when most kids by a modeler instead of an amp with their first guitars, learn what kinds of sounds they like and how to tweak them, and then, when they're a bit older and have some cash or start gigging a lot, buy the amps they've studied and grown to love via their modelers.
While modellers never managed to kill off tube amps they did successfully kill off all the crappy solid state and hybrid amps that used to exist and we’re better off for it. I think that gets overlooked in a lot of these threads.
 
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Crash-VR

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
5,048
Okay, so modellers may not do the “amp in the room thing” as well as a tube amp.

But really it doesn’t matter. The audience hears the mic’d signal, lots of players hear through stage monitors or IEM’s, if you record you hear the mic’d signal. If you listen to your favourite songs you hear the mic’d signal.

It’s not really a question of wether a model can replicate an amp in the room, it’s a question of why people still care.
The only reason for me is that I play better when what I hear and feel inspires me. At band rehearsal and on stage I play way better with my amp behind me. Although I can definitely see moving towards going direct. At least have the option for both. I don’t see why it has to be one or the other anyway?!
 

somedude

Member
Messages
7,603
I still don't think amps are on their way out, at least not for a long while, but I do have a theory on the disdain from modelers from much of the guitar playing community. This theory is much clearer to me after having watched Rhett Shull's recent video where he asks Joe Morgan, Dave Friedman, Mike Soldano, and Pete Arends their take on modelers. And even the most recent post in "Are amps on the way out?" somewhat confirms this. Throughout that thread, I'm sure there are many other cases like this.

The theory: So many people's impression of modelers are through headphones or direct into PA system, not through a real guitar cabinet moving air. Experiencing modelers in this way is a horrible and unfair first impression. So many people claim that "there is something magical about a real amp in the room", and they are right; the speaker moving air is integral for the player. However with modelers, they are generally run direct into the desk and this is not a fair way to experience a modeler.

Run your tube amp backstage/in another room and you'll experience the same thing; the guitar feels a bit more lifeless and less "energized" when the speaker isn't in the room with you. The lack of speaker/amp interaction is not a problem exclusive to modeling, but it seems to be attributed to modeling the most. And, that problem is often used as ammunition against modeling when it isn't a problem that modeling directly causes.
When modelling first started to hit big there were various players attempting to use them with tube power amps and guitar cabinets in an effort to get “the rest of the way there”. I think that past a certain point it starts to get more costly and complicated while loosing much of the benefit that people want out of a modeller.
 

themightyjay

Member
Messages
802
The only reason for me is that I play better when what I hear and feel inspires me. At band rehearsal and on stage I play way better with my amp behind me. Although I can definitely see moving towards going direct. At least have the option for both. I don’t see why it has to be one or the other anyway?!
I agree, my favoured route is a powered Kemper. Full benefits of direct to FOH or for recording, speakers pushing air behind you for fun.
 

somedude

Member
Messages
7,603
Okay, so modellers may not do the “amp in the room thing” as well as a tube amp.

But really it doesn’t matter. The audience hears the mic’d signal, lots of players hear through stage monitors or IEM’s, if you record you hear the mic’d signal. If you listen to your favourite songs you hear the mic’d signal.

It’s not really a question of wether a model can replicate an amp in the room, it’s a question of why people still care.
Because when I’m on stage I’m not listening to the mic’d signal.
 

HeavyCream

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
3,540
The destain from modelers, or,
the destain for modelers?

Anyhow, I agree with your point about real speakers cab vs IRs. Sometimes, I use a modeler into a clean amp with a couple different speaker/cab options and get fantastic results. No BS. It’s not even a very expensive unit, though it is a pretty recent model. Sometimes I even use a cab sim with a real cab. It’s basically just an EQ filter. That’s moderate volume night time home playing. I turn off the cab sim if playing loud through a real cab.

I use a modeler for certain things but I love tubes. From the perspective of someone who uses digi/tube, both camps seem to hate on each other. They both think they have it all figured out and the other way is nowhere near as good. Yet, I constantly see guys from either camp switching sides. There’s this preconceived notion that you have to do it one way or the other. That said, I do think the minority of guys who really don’t care what others think and have no problem using either technology is slowly growing.
 

FiestaRed869

Member
Messages
2,008
I think the argument is simple. If your mic’d up, on a stage, in a studio etc what everyone is hearing is inevitably a processed sound through a PA of some sort. Who cares what it sounds and feels
Like back stage where no one can experience it, or no one but you. A 4x12 cranked is magical... but if the end game is to sound as good as possible as often as possible everywhere you go...
 




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