Another Thread on Modeling (A Theory) (I'm Tired of These Threads)

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by WillLane, Feb 8, 2020.

  1. Ejay

    Ejay Member

    Jan 2, 2017
    when you plug a modeler into a cab...obviously you should turn off the cab modeling.
    Ppl playing to loud and have sounds that don’t cut it....plenty of guys using amps with the same issue.
    True...modeler has more also more options to f up your sound ;)
    JiveTurkey, Tomi JR and 3 Mile Stone like this.
  2. Dead Astronaut

    Dead Astronaut Member

    Nov 29, 2019
    One addendum to this: I think learning to play on solid state amps and digital modelers has also had a beneficial effect on my playing, because tube amps feel incredibly easy and responsive now. You have to acquire a fair degree of precision and a pretty honed-in rhythmic sense when you've got a series of Fender transistor combos, and then (in my case) you get a couple Boogies, and it feels like they're playing themselves on your behalf.
    Nickstrtcstr likes this.
  3. Dead Astronaut

    Dead Astronaut Member

    Nov 29, 2019
    ... Maybe not the worst modeler (because I think I've played it), but your point stands. Modelers are great for some things, tube amps for others, and the combination of the two is a whole other (good thing).

    I also have to say that I usually keep cab sims on, no matter how I'm using the modeler. The cab is such an integral part of the sound that I'd rather turn it on and re-EQ as necessary than go without it – even the best modelers sound hissy and thin to me, even through a great tube power section, without cab sims.
    In Absentia likes this.
  4. forgivenman

    forgivenman Member

    Feb 6, 2007
    Gigged with my Pod X3 for years and loved it. The ability to hit a foot switch and completely change your (virtual) rig was a blessing for me. I also gigged with tube amps quite a bit and didn’t think it was necessarily better- just different. Different tools do different things.
  5. geek-mo

    geek-mo Supporting Member

    May 4, 2012
    Hang on, now. If we accept your premise, then there's nothing to argue about. What fun is that?!
    Nickstrtcstr and SteveO like this.
  6. Tomi JR

    Tomi JR Member

    Dec 8, 2019
    Like people said, you should turn off the cabinet emulation when going to a cab, so you don’t get that ”double-cab”-thing.

    What I do with the Kemper, is the main output goes to the PA with the cabinet emulation, so the audience gets the direct signal. (without the hassle of mics, bleed and the tone is consistent)

    Then, another output of the Kemper has the cabinet turned off, so I can feed my poweramp and cab. This way, I can get the interaction with the cab if needed, but it doesn’t mess with the tone the audience gets.

    So there’s a lot more control and consistency and less compromise when using the Kemper. And I have heard a lot of amazing tones with bands using modellers live, as with tube amps, so it’s more about how you use ’em.
  7. DGTCrazy

    DGTCrazy Mod Squad Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2010
    Petaluma, CA
    Posts removed, Infractions/Warnings issued. Folks, if you're going to actually report a post you believe violates TGP Terms & Rules, please make sure you aren't potentially breaking the rules either in the smae thread. The rules knife cuts both ways.

    Please be respectful to each other and follow other member's examples of good behavior where they can articulate a thought in a post in a manner that gets their point across in a way that is not only constructive, but informative or otherwise what would be considered "behaving like an adult". Thank you.
  8. BMW-KTM

    BMW-KTM Member

    Feb 21, 2018
    I would have to be considered a hybrid user.
    I have the Helix Floor.
    When I first got it I tried it a number of times straight into the board and also straight into my DAW.
    I did not care for it used that way.
    The amp models themselves are not the problem but I have not found a single IR that I like.
    They all seem to make the tone distant and muddy to my ears.
    I don't know, maybe that's the point?
    If so, I am not a fan.

    Additionally I experienced the same lack of dynamics that many have already mentioned relating to there not being a real life cabinet in the room with me.
    Now I use it as my effects board in front of a tube amp and I find it to be most useful that way.
    On some of my patches I use an amp model to get a particular kind of crunch instead of a Dist/OD model but I use no IRs.
    I get the dynamics and presence (not presence in the EQ sense but in the sense that there is an amp present in the room with me) of my tube amp and I have access to pretty much any kind of guitar tone I can imagine.
  9. toomanyamps

    toomanyamps Member

    Apr 26, 2007
    People still care because there are still circumstances where the audience and the player are still hearing the amp direct.
    In small bars many players are not miking their amps. In rehearsals and jams many players are not miking their amps.
  10. themightyjay

    themightyjay Member

    Nov 9, 2012
    Well obviously that can be the case as well, but it does beg the question why they would complain that a piece of equipment not really designed to fully replicate an amp in the room can't fully replicate an amp in the room.

    Looks to me like they're trying to force a square peg into a round hole and then stating that round pegs are far superior to square pegs.
    AuntieDiluvian likes this.
  11. PhilBeau

    PhilBeau Member

    Oct 16, 2019
    Here is the funny thing...I've been playing electric guitar from the beginning through modelers only. I'm used to hearing the studio sound only through headphones and monitors. And recently, I've had a few opportunities to play a real tube amp and actually didn't like the tone. I was so used to the sound of mic'd amps and modelers that it sounded so different, that it wasn't what I was used to hearing. I liked the power, attack, dynamics, etc of playing it but it sounded so different as my point of reference was no there. One day, I'd like to have some for the experience and to develop the ear of what real amps sound like "in the room" versus the experience of only playing guitar through "simulated recorded" tones.
  12. JiveTurkey

    JiveTurkey Trumpets and Tants Supporting Member

    Mar 9, 2009
    This must have started it's life in a different subforum :anon
    metropolis_4 likes this.
  13. MKB

    MKB Silver Supporting Member

    Mar 11, 2009
    There are a few applications where modelers are superior to tube amps, first is when you have to put the tube amp in an isolation cab or room to attenuate volume. As soon as you do your monitoring through a mic, and are not in the direct presence of the guitar speaker, IMHO all benefits of tube amps are lost over modelers.

    Modelers are also far more versatile than the majority of tube amps. So many different tones and configurations are immediately on tap. In my case this is why I abandoned playing live with tube amps over a decade ago; even though the modelers back then were inferior to mic'd tube amps, the versatility made up for the tonal deficiencies.

    Modelers in most cases can sound far superior to live tube amps at low volume levels. You have to crank most tube amps to get the goodies, but modelers can sound at their best even at whisper volumes.

    We don't need to mention how most modelers have a far smaller form factor and take less space and maintenance than tube amps.

    IMHO the main issue with mass acceptance of modelers is the difficulty in their use. The only modelers that have super simple UIs are in standard amp configurations; you have less weight but the same form factor. Modeler companies seem to still be casting about trying to find a great simple UI that the masses will accept. It is also deceptively difficult to get great loud stage volume from a modeler (the surest way to do this is to use a power amp and real guitar cab, and defeat all IRs and speaker sims). I suspect a lot of first time modeler players think they can plug the modeler into any powered wedge and get great tone, and that just doesn't happen in most cases. Again the modeling companies are still trying to definitively solve this problem.

    I have been building\designing\repairing tube amps for decades, but have decided to put the soldering iron in storage for good after getting a Kemper. IMHO it does tonal things you can't get out of a tube amp design, and in many cases is better sounding and feeling than most any tube amp I've played. Still the ultimate experience is a loud tube Marshall half stack at a rock gig, but I only get gigs like that maybe once every few years. The Kemper absolutely slays in all the other gigs.
    Tomi JR and guitarobert like this.
  14. MmcGrouty

    MmcGrouty Member

    Jan 4, 2014
    Agree completely. I run my axe fx in stereo with 2 guitar cabs. Has all the “amp in the room” sound you could want.
    Slash likes this.
  15. ColdFrixion

    ColdFrixion Member

    Dec 17, 2015
    As usage becomes commonplace and players grow acclimated, I suspect the perception that modelers are difficult to use will shift over time much the way the telephone has transitioned from a simple communications device to a portable computer.
  16. fr8_trane

    fr8_trane Supporting Member

    Jan 20, 2005
    Whats the point???

    With my HX stomp + Powerstage 170 SS amp + 1x12 cab:

    It is significantly lighter than a tube combo or head + cab
    It requires no maintenance
    It is not subject to tonal variation based on house voltage, tube age or the phases of the moon.
    It provides many different (great sounding) amp tones
    I can and do still use a clean fender amp sim + my analog pedals

    And modelers also model the power section. A modeler through a power amp and a real cab sounds pretty damn authentic to my ears.
    Tomi JR likes this.
  17. Toby Krebs

    Toby Krebs Member

    Dec 20, 2012
    I gigged my Stomp for the first time yesterday at a large winery gig for 4 hours.I was able to go easily between acoustic guitar and killer electric tones with full amp models just by pressing a couple of buttons on the floor.
    The electric and acoustic tones were very inspiring and using a QSC K10.2 I easily got over a loud drunken tempo challenged drummer.

    My tube amps can’t do that.For me , being able to bring acoustic guitars to my gigs will be very cool this year.

    I will not be extreme and get rid of my many tube amps because I love them and still use them but when the Pod Go hits I will be all over it!
  18. dazco

    dazco Member

    Jul 25, 2003
    I have a modeling combo with a real guitar speaker and cab. Zero issues getting amp in the room for me, and as far as modeling vs tubes no problem there either....i have had tube amps that sounded better, and many that didn't sound as good. This for me sounds as good as i need easily AND i can get all sorts of different amp tones with any effect known to man all in one simple box, AND with amp in the room tone. And no, i'm not tone deaf and have gigged nothing but tube amps, and a LOT of them since the 70s. So i'm not a 19 year old thats been playing for 2 years and thinks all amps sound pretty much the same.

    For recording or running into a PA, what do people expect? Modeling guitar circuitry is hard enough to get right w/o also having to model the ACOUSTIC properties of a speaker and cab too. IMO as soon as you substitute FRFR or cab sims etc etc for a guitar speaker in a guitar cab you're on the road to unsatisfying tone. Maybe that will change eventually but it's not there yet near as much as modeling amp circuitry is IMO. Hell, even when i used tube amps i could never get a good tone from the PA using "solutions" like a red box. A mic was the only way that worked. The only advantage to going speakerless is recording so yeah, u ain't getting amp in the room that way, at least not today. But then once recorded even a tube amp loses that on playback unless it's recorded just right and not over processed. For live i think manufacturers should voice thier modeling to work with regular speakers/cab and cab sims should just be used to EQ the output to mimic a given cab rather then create a total digital snapshot to be played thru a full range flat system. Thats how combo modelers are designed an IMO it works, at least for me. Zero AITR issues here. But it is just MO.
    fr8_trane likes this.
  19. metropolis_4

    metropolis_4 Member

    Dec 14, 2010
    Nobody has to upgrade. Digital gear from 20 years ago still sounds the same as it did back then. Just like your amps from the 50s and 60s.

    We get to upgrade because things just keep getting better!

    I view this as a huge perk to digital gear

    Right... Someday maybe I can dream of being able to afford a real tube amp. But for now, I'll just have to suffer with my AxeFX III :rolleyes:

    I get so tired of this old argument about guys owning digital gear because they can't afford to buy tube amps. Here's a crazy idea for you: maybe we buy it because we think it is the best gear :eek::eek:
    Tomi JR likes this.
  20. burningyen

    burningyen Member

    Jan 4, 2002
    screamtone and stratchamp57 like this.

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