Anyone ever use an H & K Redbox or similar for a W/D rig?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Randy, Aug 5, 2005.

  1. Randy

    Randy Member

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    I'm realizing just how much tone I'm losing between the loops in some of my amps and my G-Major. I know a lot of people use the line out of a Hotplate or Mass to get a send for the wet side of a W/D rig, but I don't need an attenuator.

    Has anyone ever used an H & K Redbox, Palmer PDI-09 or similar as a send for their W/D rig? Are you able to get enough of a signal with the amp master low?
     
  2. Gary Brennan

    Gary Brennan Old cavorting member Gold Supporting Member

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    I have, a redbox pro (does not require any power supply), it works really well, and gives you the cab sim option if the wet side is a full frequency setup. I've fed it into a DG stomp, and now a Rocktron multivalve. As for the master low, I've done it at home fairly low volume, not much signal is required to give the wet side enough, and at gig volumes (we are not very loud), so I don't think this is an issue.

    gb
     
  3. scottl

    scottl Member

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    Randy,

    Custom Audio Electronics makes a box that is specifically designed for powering a rack. It has a level control as well.

    They are very easy to make btw, from what I am told.

    Many of the line out boxes have unneccessary bells and whistles, as well as no level control. That IMO makes the Redbox worthless for the task.

    Click here

    http://www.customaudioelectronics.com/line_out_box.htm
     
  4. Gary Brennan

    Gary Brennan Old cavorting member Gold Supporting Member

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    Scott, am curious why you felt the red box's lack of level control was an issue? Your G major is designed for everything from guitar level to line level, and has input/output controls to get the signal where you want it, no? Or am I missing something?

    gary
     
  5. Randy

    Randy Member

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    That's exactly what I need - thanks Scott!
     
  6. scottl

    scottl Member

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    Depending on where the master is, I like to have control over the send signal to make sure my levels are correct. Every loop I ever had in an amp that did not have a send level did not work at high levels. ie, my Prosonic. Therefore, I believe it to be essential for a send device to have a level control. If it doesn't, it clearly was not designed for the specific task we are discussing. The only two companies making a line out box to specifically address this particular need are CAE and Skrydstrup. Both boxes have a send level.

    That is not to say that the Redbox won't work in most situations.... I would just prefer to have the box designed specifically to send to a guitar rack. If I owned a Redbox I woudl use it. If I were in the market to buy something, I would not use it....

    Scott
     
  7. Randy

    Randy Member

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    Ah, so you can turn the speaker sim feature off - good to know. I am a little concerned about the lack of a level control. I noticed the Palmer has one but I don't think you can defeat the sim feature on that one - more research needed.

    Thanks!
     
  8. Supertgtr

    Supertgtr Member

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    The Palmer sounds great. The red box is okay.
    I too am confused on why you would need or want level control on a line level output. Since a ScottL's answer doesnt explain it, could someone clarify this to me?
     
  9. Randy

    Randy Member

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    My concern is that the output from the Redbox would be directly affected by the amp master volume. So it might work great when the amp is low but overload at high volumes or vice versa.

    Are you saying it's a set level regardless of how much the amp is putting out?
     
  10. Supertgtr

    Supertgtr Member

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    I think you might be confusing the term level with volume.
    Maybe this might help explain it: When you play your guitar, the output of the guitar is at instument level (-20), whether you play loud or soft, with the guitar's volume knob at one, or at ten. It's still instrument level. It's the same thing with line level.

    That's why I don't understand why you'd need a volume knob in the signal path on a speaker simulator. I could understand a switch to choose between -10 or +4, but not a variable knob.
    :confused:
     
  11. Gary Brennan

    Gary Brennan Old cavorting member Gold Supporting Member

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    Since the redbox is usually fed from the speaker out (you can feed it from a preamp or line level as well), its level will certainly vary with the amps volume. However I don't think you could overload at any volume the way it is designed- I never could anyway. It will of course pass all the dirt being fed into it.

    gb
     
  12. fullerplast

    fullerplast Senior Member

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    The Red Box will give you a mic level out; it will be a function of how your master vol is set. If you set up your wet effects for a given level and you then crank your amp up, you will also need to turn your effects input level down to compensate.

    If your goal is to get a clean signal to your wet side, the Red Box may not be what you want, as it will send your dry signal distorted or not - same as what is going to the dry speaker.
     
  13. Gary Brennan

    Gary Brennan Old cavorting member Gold Supporting Member

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    Yes, the redbox sends exactly those qualities of your dry signal at any particular instant. Why would you want anything else in a WD setup, except for a very unusual case such as clean echos of a crunchy tone?

    gb
     
  14. Supertgtr

    Supertgtr Member

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    Yes, it's a set level. I've used both the Palmer and the Redbox. The mixer's VU meters responded the same way, no matter where my master volume was set. It didnt effect the line level ouput.
     
  15. Gary Brennan

    Gary Brennan Old cavorting member Gold Supporting Member

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    My redbox does not stay at a fixed level, it tracks the dynamics of your playing. If it did not do this it would then truely be unuesable, as your quiet passages thru the amp would require supervision thru the house system or whatever.

    gb
     
  16. Supertgtr

    Supertgtr Member

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    I must not be making myself clear. Let me rephrase.
    The signal's dyanamics remain in tact, but it is set at line level.
     
  17. fullerplast

    fullerplast Senior Member

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    The Red Box does not stay at a "fixed level" it simply divides the signal going to the speaker by a fixed amount. You need to set your input device accordingly. It is also *not* line level- it's mic level.
     
  18. Supertgtr

    Supertgtr Member

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    I'm sorry fullerplast, it is a line level output. Try plugging a mic directly into what you're plugging the red box into and see what your levels are. You'd need a mic preamp (a mic preamp boost the level of a mic up to line level) to get any usable level from that mic.
     
  19. Supertgtr

    Supertgtr Member

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  20. Randy

    Randy Member

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    This is getting confusing :confused:

    I know the Redbox is line level, but isn't it's output affected by the amp's MV setting?

    For example my SLO has a slave output that is line level, but with the master set low, the signal is not hot enough to even touch the meters on my G-Major, regardless of how high I set the input level. I have to crank the master to get enough signal, thereby making it useless for a low volume W/D rig.
     

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