1. The Rules have been updated regarding posting as a business on TGP. Thread with details here: Thread Here
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As of July 1, 2017 No More Ads Requesting PayPal Gift in the TGP Emporiums

Discussion in 'Announcements To The Membership' started by Scott Peterson, Jun 15, 2017.

  1. caldera

    caldera Member

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    I think that is a good statement.

    "Don't even mention Paypal gift on this site, in posts or PMs or in any other form or fashion. Anyone who does will be banned."

    "By entering the Emporium you accept that TGP is not responsible and will not be liable for the outcome of any transactions in any way and will not get involved to mediate disputes no matter what the circumstances."

    It would be good to mention in addition to the above that TGP will not serve as an arbitrator, PPG or no PPG.

    And of course, if people take the conversation to emails or phone and decide on PPG, that's on them.
     
  2. caldera

    caldera Member

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    On Reverb, you don't HAVE to use PayPal. You can if you want, but using Reverb direct checkout is so much better that you have to wonder why anyone would use PayPal.
     
  3. hdahs143

    hdahs143 Supporting Member

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    I found these on Reverb's site in about a minute. There appears to be a misunderstanding of how Paypal works within Reverb. Made abundantly clear below.

    Reverb Protection for Everyone

    All transactions made through Reverb Direct Checkout are backed by Reverb Protection. However, PayPal transactions are backed by PayPal which limits our ability to provide support when issues arise (and we really hate not being able to help). Direct Checkout with Integrated PayPal applies Reverb Protection to every transaction.

    And this is Reverb Protection:

    In the case of a dispute, Reverb will contact the seller directly to help broker a return or refund for the fastest possible resolution. If resolution cannot be reached, we will help the buyer obtain a refund through one of several avenues.

    If payment was made through PayPal, we will walk you through their claim process and, if needed, provide materials necessary to ensure this process reaches the correct end.

    If payment was made through Direct Checkout, we will issue a refund directly to the buyer's credit card if we are unable to find a reasonable solution with the seller.

    If you are unhappy with your purchase in any way, please fill out this form and our Resolutions Team will get back to you within 48 hours.

    For a more in-depth look into our Resolutions Team, check out this page.
     
  4. protest

    protest Member

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    "PayPal transactions" on Reverb refers to shops that have PayPal only as their payment methods. Reverb Direct Check out allows a buyer to pay with PayPal but the seller is not paid through PayPal. Those are not the same thing. The bolded in your post is referring to PayPal to PayPal transactions, not Reverb Direct Checkout with integrated PayPal. Using Direct Checkout puts all the fraud risk on Reverb.
     
  5. orionz06

    orionz06 Member

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    Buyer ALWAYS pays shipping, always has.
     
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  6. Wesman61

    Wesman61 Member

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    I always immediately click the back button when I see ppg or when the buyer says ppg or buyer covers the pp fee. I can understand when a seller doesn't want to get screwed by an unscrupulous buyer but when it's just about the fees i find it immature. I shake my head when I see an ad that says in effect "I'll gladly pay the $25 shipping on this eminence speaker but I'll be ****** if I'm going to cover the $3 pp fee" It just seems so petty to have an attitude about it.
     
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  7. Simon

    Simon Supporting Member

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    I don't agree with that, buyer paid one or the other. Most sellers are not going to eat shipping as well as fees, prices will be higher.
     
  8. Simon

    Simon Supporting Member

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    It's when your talking 2k guitars that it makes a difference, not small spkr purchases.
     
  9. orionz06

    orionz06 Member

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    All of this goes away with one price, what the seller needs to make the deal happen. Life has been so much easier as a seller, for me, when I list what I am selling, how they're getting it, and what it'll cost.

    Pedal X, to your door USPS Flat Rate: $100... I may only get $92 but there's no dancing around with fees. It's a binary decision. If someone wants to offer less they offer less, we talk, and it's a binary decision for me. No dancing aroundd with idiots who can't do math or wanna play you pay this, I pay that.
     
  10. Wesman61

    Wesman61 Member

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    Agreed but I see it all the time at all price ranges. I was looking for good deals on speakers for a few months and saw it all the time.
     
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  11. Simon

    Simon Supporting Member

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    Yeah it's rampant, I personally will be raising my prices to cover the cost, or I'll start charging shipping on top.
     
  12. Guitardave

    Guitardave Supporting Member

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    Yep - no way I'll accept Paypal unless I feel I can trust the buyer. It's way to easy to defraud the seller and it isn't worth the risk in the least. I understand the TGP policy - but like all things I can choose what I do. In my case, I'll consider Paypal for certain items, from certain buyers with a proven track record. But it'll be check, or cash for anything substantial. And if someone can't trust my 11 year TGP history and previous transaction feedback the transaction wasn't mean to happen. But I will not risk getting ripped off via PP especially for a nice piece of gear. Bottom line is there's nearly zip protection available to the seller and a six month window for the buyer to claim whatever they want.

    And yes, this means it's likely I won't renew my supporting membership as a result.
     
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  13. Johnny Alien

    Johnny Alien Supporting Member

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    I am still wondering how often you people are getting "frauded" by buyers. Especially on this forum. On one hand you think the buyer should be comfortable with sending PPG because this is a safe forum and of course you are an honorable seller but on the other hand you are scared to take Paypal payments because everyone here is out to scam you. Again in my years and years of selling on the internet and using Paypal I have been frauded as a buyer WAY more than as a seller. In fact I can think of only a few times that I felt a buyer was probably trying to get extra money out of me or had buyers remorse. I combat that by keeping the money in Paypal until the buyer reports back happily. If they have issues the answer is always the same...ship it back. I will find another buyer. It just really confuses me that you feel that as a buyer you should have 100% coverage and the buyer should have none. It's clear that you are scared of fraud so why shouldn't the buyer be as well?
     
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  14. protest

    protest Member

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    Johnny, you're still missing the point. There is 0 protection as a seller through PayPal, that's the difference. The buyer has a 6 months no questions asked return policy and the seller has no recourse. The system is inherently biased against the seller. Even if you get the item back it's still been in the hands of a scammer who could have damaged it.

    Also there's no need to be hyperbolic. No one is saying everyone here is out to get them. If you're dealing with someone with a long, great history of transactions then it's not as big of a deal, but why in the world would you sell a high priced item to someone with low, no, or spotty feedback and not protect yourself?

    There's a case of current buyer fraud being documented publicly on another forum right now. The buyer opened a bs " not as described" claim and PayPal refunded him immediately, froze the sellers account and is pulling $2000 from him. The buyer hasn't even generated a return shipping label yet...
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2017
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  15. Broomz

    Broomz Member

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    Need more info. The couple times I've had to open a return claim there has been a lot of back and forth with the seller during the process and the onus to return the item was on me. According to you, PayPal automatically gives both the money and the item to the buyer at the merest hint of displeasure. You would think no one would accept Paypal any longer! But actually tens of thousands of $ of gear In my possession has almost all been purchased through PayPal, so looks like some people are able to make it work.
     
  16. R3deemed

    R3deemed Member

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    The issue has been PPG. It's curious to me that suddenly PP itself is the bad guy.

    I don't recall anyone here having issues with "tenured" TGP members in PP transactions, so this talk of not renewing paid membership seems suspect to me.
     
  17. Johnny Alien

    Johnny Alien Supporting Member

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    This is completely untrue even though everyone here repeats it. No questions asked return process? That doesn't exist in Paypal. It starts with a request for a refund, which the seller can deny, and then turns into a dispute. The dispute is reviewed by paypal and often takes weeks. Far from a "no questions asked" process. And although you have a 6 month window to file a dispute the longer you take to file it the less likely you are to win that dispute. In fact if it's over 2 months you have to have a really good defense to win the dispute. I would like to hear a valid story here of even one seller that sold a high dollar item and had to refund it "no questions asked" 6 months later.

    Exactly...now flip that. Why should a buyer (who has twice the amount of risk) send $2000 to someone with no protection? Money sent by PPG is just handing cash over. That person can choice to not send the guitar at all and the buyer has zero recourse because they just "gifted" the money to that person.

    Paypal does not refund automatically. They absolutely do freeze the funds though. I am sure the seller assumes that the money got refunded because the account was frozen and the funds were pulled but that's not the case. If the buyer loses the case the money will be returned. The only way that money gets sent automatically is if the seller did something wrong like hit the refund payment before shipping.

    Everyone here is free to do what they like. Go ahead and raise the prices on the overpriced gear that has issues selling at the price listed now. Go ahead and ask for check or MO only. All that does is raise the chance that the item will never sell. Paypal is a great tool that makes buying and selling easier, quicker and yep..more secure. That protection is actually what draws buyers to it. I know that after getting ripped off by checks in the old day that added protection is 100% a feature for me. I will send PPG for small items but if someone required me to send it for a high dollar item there is no chance even if they have a good rep. The item could get lost in the mail or damaged and the seller could say "it's out of my hands once it ships". I have seen that attitude on here more than once.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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  18. protest

    protest Member

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    At no point in that post did I say that PayPal gave the item and the money to the buyer. I said they pulled the money from the seller's account as soon as the claim was filed, not even waiting for the amp to be back on it's way.

    What is sudden about PayPal being the bad guy? This has been the case for over a decade, it's just more egregious now with the 6 month return policy that they recently enacted. Also, I literally said in the post that you quoted that selling to "tenured" members is not a big deal, but the last 3 things I sold on here were to members with no feedback. I'd have to decline those sales in a down market environment because of rule that the site is now enforcing, unless I could get their emails and work a deal that way, which just adds more of a hassle and makes me as a seller seem suspicious for no reason.
     
  19. TexasHeartRush

    TexasHeartRush Supporting Member

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    Nah brother, you missed the relevance. - I will personally do standard PP business with anybody who can show they are an established buyer. I prefer it - I REALLY like PP. One of my own businesses does on average 15,000 transactions per year. I know how they roll inside and out. But in business I have many safeguards and far fewer high dollar risks. Still PP always sides with the buyer...always.

    In a person to person exchange it is different. If the buyer is not established, the scales are unbalanced, PPG was ONE balancing weight. I was burned once by the PP return policy, just once, but for a 3k bass. Enough to warrant I avoid it with high-risk buyers. And your own solution is mine as well. I keep the buyers money in account until I am given the 'written' green light that all is good. But MOST (yes MOST) do not give the green light (50% don't give feedback here on TGP either, they refuse to use it) So what if you don't get the green light? You hang on to their money? Nah, not likely. And months later, same buyers are granted the right to pull the money back and ship the item back. PP 'review' policy is nothing really. They pull the funds from sellers acct. as soon as the level of 'dispute' is elevated to claim, by default. They read over any email materials/documentations etc... But in reality all they require is a tracking # showing the item has been received back (no questions about the condition of the item) and then they refund the buyer...no questions asked. Reading this thread, that policy seems far-fetched to some, but ya'll must not use PP often.That's how it works.

    I recently sold a guitar on the Emporium for $2500. A nice Suhr. The buyer was not an active member and had no feedback, he was sent the link to the guitar/told about the guitar from his friend here. He also had 0 feedback on Reverb and Ebay. I asked for PPG, the buyer was not comfortable so I asked him for any forum references. He had a long term Emporium established member here who emailed me on his behalf (Character witness so to speak) he was willing to take the risk for him, so I was cool with it - he sent me reg PP, I sent him the guitar. He was happy, I was happy. He left feedback...etc. Bottom line, it's not a 'forum is full of hooligans out to get ya' mentality. That is just silliness. It's just about one option (PPG) that has been a big support here on the forums for years...in certain cases. More and more cases over the past couple years. Now it is going away and along with it long time established sellers whose very feedback and references provided the platform for PPG to be a legitimate/safe choice for buyers. - No victims here, just not a win/win.
     
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  20. protest

    protest Member

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    So you would trust a company that allows people to break the things they receive and file a not as described claim as the sole moderator of your dispute when high dollars are involved? You would sell a $2,000 amp or guitar to someone with no feedback or low feedback, and subject yourself to their decision making?

    I've heard tons of stories about what buyers have done to sellers on eBay. My sister made clothes and dolls and sold them on eBay, she had a woman literally cut a doll up and say that's how they arrived. PayPal refunded her the money, and my sister was out the sale, her time, and her materials. People destroying items to insure they got a return happened numerous times, to the point that she closed the store and stopped doing it.

    My brother had an online jewelry store on eBay...you can imagine where this is goign to go. Long story short he stopped after having too many ruins with scammers trying to steal diamonds.

    Point is why should anyone trust this company to be fair to the seller when they have a long, documented history of being incredibly biased towards the buyer? Who cares if it's 2 weeks, 2 months, or 6 months, why should anyone deal with that stress? If they don't protect you 5 weeks from now, why should they be given the benefit of a doubt that they'll protect you 5 months from now?


    I said in this thread that I would not pay someone with no or low feedback through PayPal gift, the same way I wouldn't sell to someone with that same feedback through regular PayPal. It goes both ways, but TGP is only removing one side of the equation, which is why we're discussing it.

    That is most likely the case from my experience, but I'm just going from what he said.

    1) I like that you assume my gear is overpriced and doesn't sell. The last 7 or so things I've sold have been gone within about 72 hours. Several through PP gift to buyers with no or low feedback.
    2) Exactly, all this does is place undue hardship on sellers who have good feedback and that do not want to sell their gear to people that don't have a track record of good deals if they have to use PP. It makes them seem suspicious and it makes it more difficult for them to sell, which is why I would just stick to Reverb.
    3) You would never send PP gift to person with great feedback for a high dollar item but you have no problem selling a high dollar item to anyone via regular PP?
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017

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