As of July 1, 2017 No More Ads Requesting PayPal Gift in the TGP Emporiums

Discussion in 'Announcements To The Membership' started by Scott Peterson, Jun 15, 2017.


  1. hdahs143

    hdahs143 Supporting Member

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    I stand corrected. After a lengthy chat session with a Reverb Rep, he informed that yes, with Direct Checkout with Integrated Paypal, they act as the sellers agent in regards to normal returns, and disputes, to include the 180 day return policy. He could not direct me to a section in Terms of Use, or any other place on the website where it clearly says that, and admitted they needed to clear the language up on the website, because the page I got my information from, and the one page he referred me to, is ambiguous at best. But anyhow, that appears to be how it works. He also said they do not allow PPG, and that use of PPG would void "Reverb Protection", not to mention that again, use of PPG for the sale and purchase of products is clearly against their terms of use.

    So in light of Reverb handling any Paypal issues, why would you sell anywhere else? Seems to me the 6.2% fee you pay on Reverb would be well worth that. OF course, if you search, you will find Reverb horror stories on here and elsewhere.

    Seems like Reverb offers protection for all concerned and not just the seller, because PPG does nothing for the buyer. Reverb will try to work out an initial resolution, if none can be reached, they will refund the buyer, and then they will conduct their investigation. If found against the seller, they will recoup the funds either from the sellers Reverb account, or the credit card on file. That is an interesting distinction, because while Paypal can make your Paypal account go negative, and eventually close it, they cannot debit your personal bank account.

    With all the consternation about how Paypal is just poised to screw sellers any chance they get, it's a wonder some of you still use it. There are clearly other options. Even on here, all TGP has done is forbid the use of it in any TGP correspondence, be it ads or PM's, thus ending any affiliation with the use of PPG. They have clearly said what you do in private is your business. But it has caused them more trouble than it is worth, and they are done. You either believe them or you don't. They haven't cut into anybody's business. At most it is an inconvenience, on a venue, that only charges an annual membership fee, that is miniscule in comparison to say Reverb or Ebay fees per transaction. I saw someone quote $15k in annual sales. TGP's Fee - $12 annually. Reverb's fees $930.00. Makes you wonder what all of the fuss is really about?

    There seems to be a lot of perspective on here, that doesn't venture far from one's own front porch. In the end transactions involve sellers and buyers over the internet, not face to face, and the idea that one side should accept 100% of the risk involved, just isn't reasonable.
     
  2. mhenson42

    mhenson42 Supporting Member

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    As a buyer I would never pay paypal gift. Why should I take the risk? As a seller, I don't ask for gift for that same reason.

    Sellers who are worried about the 6 month return period, why not just send your $2k amp to the buyer first and have them bank wire you the $ after they receive it? Solves your problem...no on-going return risk or paypal fees to worry about. This just requires you to accept the initial transaction performance risk (the buyer sending the $ after receipt of amp) that you would force the buyer to accept by only taking PPG (the seller sending the amp after receipt of non-recourse $ via PPG). Probably isn't happening for most sellers - for much the same reason why I won't pay with PPG as a buyer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
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  3. frankencat

    frankencat Los Luthier Gold Supporting Member

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    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
  4. justin

    justin Gold Supporting Member

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    Ive been selling and buying a ton of gear on TGP since the beginning. Before PayPal I always knew as a buyer that I was going to have to send my money to the seller then the seller would ship the gear. I knew I was taking some risk. Thats why as a seller you listed references. I have done and still do a lot of trading here. I take a risk when I ship my gear off assuming my trading partner is doing likewise. Once again, references or feedback rating. I would never do any of those things outside of TGP. Thats the benefit of TGP. Trust. In return I can list things for cheaper here and I can usually buy things cheaper. Its cheaper to sell here because of no middle man. Why do you think people have a Reverb price and a TGP price thats cheaper. Some people just aren't cut out to handle any risk. They should buy and sell on eBay or reverb or local. The TGP Emporiums have always and should stay a place for members to connect and make deals. The deals agreed to should stay between them. Anyone trying to drag the administrators or mods into a deal they make should get a special designation under their profile name like "Idiot Member". Then the rest of us would know not to deal with them. I would never expect them to fix my problem deal. Grow up! If you get ripped off by all means post about it loudly. The biggest deterrent to scamming someone here is getting blackballed. That would cause me to refund someone their money as long as it wasn't obvious to everyone the buyer was in the wrong. I don't want my reputation to take a hit over any amount of money.
     
  5. TexasHeartRush

    TexasHeartRush Supporting Member

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    Some folks are super uncomfortable with PPG - Like I said, it's cool and I really understand. As a seller I make certain to provide my full name, address, email, cell# etc.. along with my refs and 17 years of impeccable trading feedback as a sign of faith. I make certain I am transparent and available.

    Still, Justin made a great point. Trades. No different than PPG. Trades can only happen because of mutual trust with no guarantees. Here on TGP many of these trades are 2k, 3k, 4k guitars or amps, with the only guarantee (that it will even ship, much less arrive as described) is our word and reputation. And trades are one of the coolest benefits of the honorable guitar world. Both parties often win bigger. The folks who find PPG too big a risk, do you find trades as big of a risk? Should trade offers in an ad be banned also considering folks get burned in trades also? No flame in the least, genuinely curious.
     
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  6. caldera

    caldera Member

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    There seem to be two rulings here:

    -TGP doesn't want to provide an environment for sales paid using PPG, because using PPG for a sale is fraud
    -TGP wants to be clear that it will not mediate any sort of Emporium dispute, ever

    Trades would seem to fall under the latter. Like PPG, it's no different than mailing an envelope full of cash to a stranger.

    Sure, someone may have a history of years of good deals, but when a package gets swiped off someone's porch and you're talking about $3,000, there are a lot of people who might have integrity when it's a $50 pedal that would decide they'll just disappear from TGP rather than be out $3k.

    It's totally at will. Nobody is saying you can't do it, just that it's foolhardy.
     
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  7. Broomz

    Broomz Member

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    ^This.
     
  8. hdahs143

    hdahs143 Supporting Member

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    I agree with almost all of that, with the exception that there is a difference between PPG and a trade. With all things otherwise being equal:

    Trades involve both parties sharing the implied risk. PPG guarantees the seller gets paid, and guarantees absolutely nothing for the buyer.
     
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  9. protest

    protest Member

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    Here's the thing though, someone with a long history of good deals is very likely to never allow that to happen, since it's incredibly simple to avoid.

    Why would you (in general, not you) let a $3,000 piece of gear leave your house without requiring a signature confirm? What kind of buyer/trader would not either request a sig confirm if they know they might not be home or just have the item held at the UPS/FedEx store?
     
  10. R3deemed

    R3deemed Member

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    I don't think they're saying this at all.
    Yeah, they are saying you can't put PPG in your ad. If two members agree to it off the board, they don't want to hear about it.
     
  11. caldera

    caldera Member

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    It was just a simple way of saying that there are plenty of people out there who might do right by you for a little but not for a lot.
     
  12. Broomz

    Broomz Member

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    USPS Signature Confirmation is, apparently, "at postal carrier's discretion". I found this out last year after a couple of Sig Confirm packages were left on my porch. (Cali76-TX was one of them, I recall.) They can decide not to do it and sign it themselves. Google it and see how far attempts to complain about it got people.
     
  13. protest

    protest Member

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    That's fair, but my point is basically there are only a handful of potential pitfalls in a deal (removing scammers from the equation), and there is a remedy for basically all of them. Pack properly to the rules of the carrier, get insurance and get a signature confirm/hold at a location. If anything goes wrong in the delivery process it's on the seller, not the buyer. If the seller went through the proper steps than they would be filing a claim with the carrier if anything went wrong, and the buyer would be getting their money back.

    The only time I had something outside of the norm happen was with a Wampler pedal that died in transport with seemingly no damage to the package. If Wampler hadn't replaced it for my buyer I would have taken it up with UPS because it was insured and packed with 2" of approved packaging on all sides.

    Wow that's not cool. That's the first I've heard of this, as I've had notes left on my door when I wasn't home to sign. The safest thing to do is to have it held at FedEx or UPS location, which is what I always do if I know someone isn't going to be home.
     
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  14. TexasHeartRush

    TexasHeartRush Supporting Member

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    Agreed, trade involves both parties assuming the risk, the same no guarantee risk that makes PPG a thorn to some. If the deal goes south, the entire exchange should be handled between both parties, not TGP (As should ALL issues). Nobody can account for, nor be held responsible for a buyers lack of discretion when sending PPG. That's life 101. But the same risk applies in trades (you send your guitar, you don't know if the other party will ship until you get a tracking, then it's still easy to fraud)...so you think the trade offers should be banned as well? I haven't read anybody's answer to that yet.
     
  15. Johnny Alien

    Johnny Alien Supporting Member

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    I don't like PPG on high end items and I feel the same way about trades. When I have done trades in the past I will send the person the value of the guitar via Paypal and then they send it back as a payment to me. That way there is Paypal buyer security built into the trade. If it doesn't come or was described wrong you can still open up a dispute.
     
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  16. Andygee

    Andygee Silver Supporting Member

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    If you deliver a $3000 instrument to somebody's porch with no insurance or arrange for signatures or confirmation or deliver to a local depot for pickup...you're an irresponsible seller. It's on you. PayPal can't cover bad judgement.
     
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  17. Broomz

    Broomz Member

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    Actually using PPG will cover your own bad judgment, if you don't feel like paying for it, which is sort of the whole point of this thread.
     
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  18. Andygee

    Andygee Silver Supporting Member

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    I all boils down to many Gear Page members wanting the Page to keep their nose out of member transactions. In return not asking G-Page to do anything if something goes wrong. No need for new policy.
     
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  19. R3deemed

    R3deemed Member

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    No. No, it doesn't.
     
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  20. Andygee

    Andygee Silver Supporting Member

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    As I said many, obviously not all. I don't see any reason why this involvement. It's between buyer and seller...period.
     

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