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Bar/party gig legal responsibility question...

doc

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
7,406
If you’re gigging and observe some worrisome issues in the crowd, what are your legal obligations? A couple of example scenarios - some lady is getting unwanted physical attention, someone is falling down drunk and possibly medically in trouble, some one starts a fight. Do you intervene, call 911, tell the host or bar owner, call them out on the mic, do nothing?
 

BeeBaa

Senior Member
Messages
1,569
You should always step in if you see someone being sexually assaulted.

But if you’re playing the kind of venue where you’re playing behind chicken wire or bulletproof glass, anything else goes. The audience knew what they were getting themselves into.

Hope this helps.
 

sws1

Member
Messages
12,214
If you’re gigging and observe some worrisome issues in the crowd, what are your legal obligations? A couple of example scenarios - some lady is getting unwanted physical attention, someone is falling down drunk and possibly medically in trouble, some one starts a fight. Do you intervene, call 911, tell the host or bar owner, call them out on the mic, do nothing?
A bunch of people were identified watching and filming a woman getting raped on a train in Philly (just a few days ago). Came out yesterday that, while morally reprehensible, the watches are not legally in trouble.
 

DreamTheaterRules

Former Lyricist for Calhoun Tubbs
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
4,585
Came out yesterday that, while morally reprehensible, the watches are not legally in trouble.
came out today, right here and now, that anyone who watches and films it and does nothing about it needs their ass KICKED! Edit: Any MALE. I wouldn't expect or want a female to try to jump in and stop a fight.

I don't know what is wrong with the younger generation that their idea of the correct response to something like this is watching, filming and putting it on social media. There was an article I saw a couple months ago, where three guys jumped one (which is always an indication that you're a coward!) and the "reason" was the one guy liked one of the 3 guys sisters. Turns out, she likes him too! But, the brother and two other thug wimps jump the one guy. And not to go off further but it is what it is. When you've hit a guy 5 more time and he's down and not getting up, if you continue to kick him while he's down YOU NEED YOUR A$$ BEAT! Especially, the thug that did almost nothing while the first to jumped him, and only came in for a few kicks after the fight was over. What a man he is!

If that's not enough to make your blood boil, the whole thing was filmed by a whole group of people, most of whom knew all involved, (and it turns out, knew why the thugs were jumping him AND knew that the guy had done nothing wrong!) and there were at least 6-7 other guys seen in the videos, who were standing and watching of filming it... enough to have easily broken up the fight, or at least had the balls to stop them when they guy was down for good and they were just kicking him. In the head and face! :red:red

After reading the article and watching the videos I was so fuming mad that I would have gone in by myself against all three of them rather than let them beat a defenseless guy half to death. But the reaction of the 16-20 year old guys standing around there was to watch and do nothing or get their phones out and film the whole thing and make comments. WTF is wrong with people?
 

MagusFaerox

Member
Messages
683
Morally...that's up to you and whatever your moral authority is.

Legally...it depends on the Good Samaritan laws where you are. In some places, you're obligated to intervene. In others, you're protected if you choose to intervene and screw up. In some, you're legally responsible for negative consequences should you choose to intervene. It's up to you to learn which you're in and act according to that and your sense of morality.

The closest situation I've seen was a guy who passed out from ODing at a concert. He was in the front row, and the singer noticed it before almost anyone else. The rest of the band kept playing that phrase while the singer stopped performing, put a flashlight on him, and asked for help over the PA. Security/bouncers/etc. weren't visible, so a couple friends and I made our way over. We ended up clearing a path and carrying him out. EMTs were waiting outside. They had been called and were very close, but they hadn't figured out how to get in yet.

We found out later that he made it to the hospital alive and then heard no more about him.

Yes, we let the band know later that he at least got to EMTs.
 

Yer Blues

Member
Messages
9,011
Wasn't this similar to the last episode of Seinfeld?

I saw something similar 20 (or so) years ago when I first started playing bars. There was a jam I would go to almost weekly. Eventually the host invited me to play a couple gigs with his band and I ended up joining another band in addition. The clientel at this place was kind of sketchy. Anyways, one of the drummers was a female cop and a hell of drummer. She played with a band around town that gigged steadily. So, she is playing and in the middle of a song gets up, holds her sticks like clubs, and says "GET YOUR HANDS OFF HER" in what I assume was her cop voice. Everyone turns around as she jumps off stage like a bat out of hell. In the darkness of the bar you see a sketchy figure quickly walk to the exit. I initially thought it was her sister, but I asked her about it a couple months later and I remember she said "I don't have a sister...."

I haven't seen anything like that since with a customer asking like that. But, I'm pretty focused when I play. If I did see something like that I'd handle it depending on the venue.... I'd either tell a security guy if there was one or one of the managers. If it was someone I knew I'd get involved, but if not I wouldn't get involved.... it's not the bands job to deal with those kinds of things. We're there to play music and sell alcohol.
 

smallbutmighty

I do my own stunts.
Silver Supporting Member
Messages
10,421
Morality and legality are two very different things.
Indeed.

First obvious step: ask someone to notify the venue. I have done this many times when there is someone fall-down drunk who is interfering with other fan's enjoyment or the band's ability to perform. Spilled drinks, broken bottles, barf on the floor....same deal. Most of the time this resolves the situation.

If it doesn't, and the situation warrants it, stop the show and tell the crowd what you need them to do. As the person with the microphone, with the crowd generally on your side, you can do a lot to peacefully resolve bad situations.
 

MagusFaerox

Member
Messages
683
Wasn't this similar to the last episode of Seinfeld?
Yep. In France, at that time, Good Samaritan laws were such that you had to at least try to intervene if you saw a crime taking place. No idea if that's still the case or not.

FWIW, where we were in my story, we were protected but not obligated as long as we didn't receive compensation for any actions taken.
 

bobcs71

Member
Messages
5,562
I'm there to provide music/entertainment, not act as a bouncer or security guard.
Years ago I played in a house band fronted by the bar owner. He let us know we were the bouncers and police were not to be called. The band only had to intervene a couple times.
 

coffeecupman

Member
Messages
400
Filming isn't useless. If you've called the cops, and you're not strong enough to stop what's going on, filming it at least ensures the perpetrators won't have a leg to stand on in court.

The people who film abuses are part of putting the actors in jail. It's not nothing.
 

cvanderwolk

Member
Messages
41
With a few exceptions, there is no legal duty to act to help someone in trouble.

As mentioned above, legal duty and ethical obligations/moral compunction are very different things.
 

Strummerfan

Member
Messages
4,213
came out today, right here and now, that anyone who watches and films it and does nothing about it needs their ass KICKED! Edit: Any MALE. I wouldn't expect or want a female to try to jump in and stop a fight.

I don't know what is wrong with the younger generation that their idea of the correct response to something like this is watching, filming and putting it on social media. There was an article I saw a couple months ago, where three guys jumped one (which is always an indication that you're a coward!) and the "reason" was the one guy liked one of the 3 guys sisters. Turns out, she likes him too! But, the brother and two other thug wimps jump the one guy. And not to go off further but it is what it is. When you've hit a guy 5 more time and he's down and not getting up, if you continue to kick him while he's down YOU NEED YOUR A$$ BEAT! Especially, the thug that did almost nothing while the first to jumped him, and only came in for a few kicks after the fight was over. What a man he is!

If that's not enough to make your blood boil, the whole thing was filmed by a whole group of people, most of whom knew all involved, (and it turns out, knew why the thugs were jumping him AND knew that the guy had done nothing wrong!) and there were at least 6-7 other guys seen in the videos, who were standing and watching of filming it... enough to have easily broken up the fight, or at least had the balls to stop them when they guy was down for good and they were just kicking him. In the head and face! :red:red

After reading the article and watching the videos I was so fuming mad that I would have gone in by myself against all three of them rather than let them beat a defenseless guy half to death. But the reaction of the 16-20 year old guys standing around there was to watch and do nothing or get their phones out and film the whole thing and make comments. WTF is wrong with people?
Wholeheartedly agree. Anyone who witnesses a sexual assault and does nothing is a complete waste of oxygen. In any case where someone weaker is being victimized by somebody stronger, it is a moral obligation to either step one at least get help. As for that OP's questions, you may not be legally required to act, but morality is much more important than legality. If you are in fear of repercussions, you have to at least let the bars management know what's happening. No excuse to be an audience.
 

Strummerfan

Member
Messages
4,213
Filming isn't useless. If you've called the cops, and you're not strong enough to stop what's going on, filming it at least ensures the perpetrators won't have a leg to stand on in court.

The people who film abuses are part of putting the actors in jail. It's not nothing.
In some cases that's true, assuming stepping in is too risky and you are firmly aware that help is being sought. Unfortunately I don't believe that is the motivation for most of these video voyeurs.
 

coffeecupman

Member
Messages
400
In some cases that's true, assuming stepping in is too risky and you are firmly aware that help is being sought. Unfortunately I don't believe that is the motivation for most of these video voyeurs.
You're probably right. The victims should never have to go through it, but the perpetrators are going to lose everything because of those cameras.

And if you post it to social media you're definitely not helping, unless of course that's how you're finding out who the victim is and giving them access to the materials that way...

or... geez, I'm going to go play guitar.
 




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