Basic differences between Fender clean and Marshall Clean?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Figaro, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Figaro

    Figaro Supporting Member

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    I know it depends on amp models but basically, and if played through the same speakers, how would you describe the difference?
     
  2. Drewboy

    Drewboy Member

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    Mid’s are different. A lot of variables there. Reverb is almost part of the Fender sound in itself.
     
  3. 71strat

    71strat Supporting Member

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    Marshall in general has more harmonics, and I believe a wider frequency response.. Especially the JTM preamps, and KT66.:argue:banana

    My LTD ED Metro GMP45 head slays my Blackfaced/ODS mod 69 Dual Showman rvb for harmonics, and cleans, though the DS is considerably louder. But clean tone wise the GMP45 I like much better. The OD is no comparison, though with the ODS mod it has over the top gain, with controllable feedback at low volumes, but even as nice as it is, and is crushingly loud with the mod turned on, still doesn't have the harmonics of the Metro. Both have NOS glass, and 100% working condition.

    Both going through 2 Celestion 90w Alnico Creams.


    JTM45/100 x 8 Creams would be even more better:rolleyes::crazyguy:bow:eeks

    Many of the Hendrix clean tones on record, that are mistaken for Fender, are JTM45/100
     
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  4. davidespinosa

    davidespinosa Supporting Member

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    I think the tone stacks are slightly different, but I can't find a good reference.
    If you're on Windows, you can run the Duncan Tone Stack Calculator:
    http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/

    Or search a bit harder -- there are certainly threads with graphs.
     
  5. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    Marshall has more mids?
     
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  6. plumberstrummer

    plumberstrummer Fatal3Records.com Silver Supporting Member

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    I usually push my marshalls, but as far as clean is considered - i usually think of the ideal plexi clean as live hendrix or andy summers. Descriptively, i think of marshall as sweet and wild (harmonically jangly) at best but harsh and sharp at worst, whereas a fender is bass-y and clean at best but woofy and unfocused at worst. Relatively speaking.
     
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  7. bigtone23

    bigtone23 Member

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    The inherent mid scoop of their tone stacks are rather different. Fender BF/SF cleans are generally very scooped around 400-600Hz and Marshalls are not as scooped at a little higher range--around 800-900Hz. This alone has a great effect on the general character of their respective tones.
     
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  8. LeicaBossNJ

    LeicaBossNJ Silver Supporting Member

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    One of them sounds good...
     
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  9. ant_riv

    ant_riv Supporting Member

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    Using totally illogical words to describe them, I'd say:
    Fender: bigger and rounder due to good bass and treble emphasis
    Marshall: punchier and more focused due to midrange emphasis
     
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  10. Alchemist XP

    Alchemist XP Supporting Member

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    Fender blackfaces = more hollow and slightly scooped
    Marshall = bigger, fuller, warmer with more mids

    BUT ... if you get a Fender Tweed (baseman, tweed deluxe, etc.) it's a lot more Marshall-like, IMHO than Fenderish.
     
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  11. Northerner

    Northerner Member

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    Fender=v
    Marshal=^
     
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  12. PCalugaru

    PCalugaru Member

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    intage
    Depends on how you look at various tone stacks. JTM45 is Marshall's version of a 5F6 Tweed Bassman. JTM45 isn't more in the harmonics range or a frequency response of a vintage Black face or Silver Face (doubt very much it comes close RI's either...) KT66s just don't do that. JTM45 with Kt66s (an actual one with the correct "underpowered transfomer) does do full and round, but on the lower end of the frequency range. Overall the tone stack design is kinda dark... Yes it sweet as hell! Is this what that amp is known for??? last time I checked that transfomer starves those KT66s of amperage which cause the amp to go into overdrive sooner than a Bassman. ala Classic Clapton woman tone! Were a Tweed Bassman sits more higher up in the frequency range and has tighter mids and sharper treble, the JTM45 Is loose in the bottom end of mids, goes deeper on the bass and is not as sharp in the treble.

    I honenestly can't decide what amp sounds best.. both a Tweed 5F6 or a JTM45 are killer amps.

    IMO though if you compare the JTM45 to a BF (or a BF'ed Silver) Twin, Super Reverb, Vibrolux, Pro Reverb etc with decent tubes and decent speakers, the frequency range of those amps are totally different that a JTM45. I too love me some KT66 action But I love me some vintage Pro Reverb dimed too.. and as far as frequencys and harmonics goes a vintage Twin Reverb, with "it's "American chime" and punch...(both chime and punch the JTM45 lack) the buck stops there as far as Frequency and harmonics... the Twins con is it doesn't do the beautiful saturated overdrive an amp like the JTM45 can do.
     
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  13. Figaro

    Figaro Supporting Member

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    Is there really that much difference in their CLEAN sounds?

    Could you could really tell the difference in a blind A-B comparison and/or recordings with a band?

    Is it possible to adjust them so you can’t tell a difference?
    .
     
  14. fitz

    fitz Member

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    I don't think in most circumstances with the exception of the JTM 45 & Bassman and possibly some others they are remotely close as far as the Marshalls I played. Fender cleans have sparkle, are much less mid heavy, cleaner, chimey high end and deeper bass. Marshall's are mid focused, less bass and treble.

    To answer your above questions from my perspective:

    1) Yes
    2) Yes
    3) No
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  15. easyed

    easyed Supporting Member

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    Which is better at 70 mph: Camaro or Mustang? Same sort of premise here. People just prefer one over the other, but they're both good.
     
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  16. Jr Deluxe

    Jr Deluxe Member

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    The difference is like the difference when your wife cleans your house and your mom cleans. When your wife cleans its pretty clean but there still might be a little dirt in hard to reach places. When your mom cleans you cant find dirt if you try. Of course im talking about fender twin with jbls. I dont think fender had the reputation for clean cleans until the mid 70s. Before that maybe the clean machine was ampeg.
     
  17. Figaro

    Figaro Supporting Member

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    Do you think a Marshall is more versatile because it can go from clean to higher overdrive/distortion?
     
  18. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    Depends on the model.
     
  19. PCalugaru

    PCalugaru Member

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    Anything after the JTM45 I.e. Plexi up till the JCM900 (some will say JCM800) is classic stuff! Iconic tones that are beyond reproach! But (my generation and the ones that came before... or after me, didn't play Marshalls for thier Cleans. We dimed the Mofo, and wailed! So more versatile than a Fender? NOT BY A LONG SHOT! And we weren't looking for them to be versitile anyways.. it was..(and still is) all about being loud and proud!

    I think the long of it is Marshall probably is just as versitle as Fender but the guitar world for the most part doesn't see Marshall in that light.

    Fender's ingenious buisness model (invisioned and started by Leo himself) was and is to make an amp for the masses. Your basic Fender amp platform handles Country, Blues, Jazz, Rock, Alternative, Indie, Classic rock, Top 40 dance, Funk, R&B (probably have missed a genera or two) That's a lot of music a Fender amp plantform will cover... let's not forget what amps like the HRD and the Blues Jr has done for the guitar pedal effects market too.

    What is Marshal known for? Metal, Rock, Classic Rock, Alternative Rock, Blues...Also a pretty large genera but about half of what a Fender is known for. IMO this should be a nagative for Marshall.. For me personally, If I were to start playing hard rock again.. Marshall would be one of the companies I'd being looking at.. (sure wouldn't be Fender!) And I'll note I've seen a rare country player or two using Marshall Combos and sounding very very good doing it.
     
  20. Steppin' Wolfe

    Steppin' Wolfe Member

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    Uniek teh debate about the chicken and the egg, we all know which came first...the Fender. IF you get a 5F6A or a 5F8A 80 watt Tweed Twin, it is more Fender like. The Marshalls are 'Fendery'
    since they are the clones of those two big Tweeds. Run through the same speakers, the early Marshalls will sound very much like the two big tweeds.

    figaro, there are so many different Fender sounds, that the question is imho not answerable in a reasonable amount of time. Within the time frame of the late '50's when that 5F6A/5F8A thing was done that was the model for what Jim Marshall did, there are at least 5 different 'classes' of distinct sounds in those tweed FEnder...imho and ime.
    5F1...Champs....
    5E3 Deluxe...
    Vibrolux and 5G9 Tremolux.....they have fixed bias...the only smaller tweeds that had it. Different amps due to that.
    5E7 Bandmaster/5F4 Super/5e5A Pro...these amps are not small bassmans adn they dont' sound like a Bassman...they are a class unto them selves.
    5E7A Twin....lo-power....with two rectifiers it is approaching what the big tweeds do. but....they have the cathodyne phase inverter as do the Pro/Bandmaster/Super amps. Pull one rectifier and you are very close to those 3 amps but with 2 x 12's.
    the Big Tweeds....5F6A and 5F8A.....nothing else like 'em....that is why Marshall cloned the Bassman for the first Marshalls....even using 5881's until the easier access to KT66's made that change for him.

    We didn't touch on the earlier tweeds. We aren't getting into the 6G's, and there are some differences among those amps. Then, you get to the BF/SF thing which is usually what people mean when they say 'Fender sound'.
    So...which Fender amp sound is it that you want compared to which Marshall....because there are different Marshall sounds, too...even in the first two decades?

    the BF/SF has a scooped midrange. the Marshall....classic vintage ones based closely on the 5F6A..yield a mid range hump...that looks just like the 5F6A on a scope.
    The scooped midrange of the BF amps can be changed very easily...two channels there...you can have it all if you want.
     

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