Basketweave question.....

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by ukslinger, Mar 28, 2008.

  1. ukslinger

    ukslinger Member

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    I've never heard one of these vintage cabs but have read a lot of hype. The real-deals are crazy expensive so I was wondering if any modern day cab builders are using that material in a 2x12 or 4x12 cab. I also was wondering if using beam-blockers would yield the same results. Thanks
     
  2. StoneAge Cabs

    StoneAge Cabs Silver Supporting Member

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    Hi ukslinger.
    By 'that material'...you must be referring to the heavier weave grille clothe... {salt-n-pepper }..because of the beam-blocker inquiry?? I personally haven't compared the difference between snp & beam-blockers, but I would imagine the s-n-p would have a more subtle effect on the tone than the bb's. SNP is the thickest weave cloth I know of....well, that and Cane...and is still readily available for many cab builders.
    Also, the birch ply used at the time of the basketweave era cab
    {late 60's/early 70's} was 11 ply [5/8"].
     
  3. SatelliteAmps

    SatelliteAmps Member

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    The short answer is no. No one is making it correctly to imitate the sound. A few people have tried, and gotten the look close, but it doesn't affect the sound the same. Beam-blockers will not achieve the same results. Until someone replicates the actual basketweave, there won't be any cabs that sound exactly the same. Same with the salt and pepper, and the bluesbreaker clothes (all four versions of it)
     
  4. wsaraceni

    wsaraceni Member

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    how is the basketweave different than the salt and pepper cloth? i just recently picked up the marshall book at it seems to say most 4x12s came with the s&p. im still not sure what exactly the term "basketweave" is referring to. i hear it thrown around a lot.
     
  5. StoneAge Cabs

    StoneAge Cabs Silver Supporting Member

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    snp and bw ARE the same thing...just different names.
    And yepp, GENUINE snp/bw cloth is still available....and, from what I can tell is spot on to the original from the late 60's.
    Weave simply refers to the cloth style Marshall switched to, in what...68'??
     
  6. wsaraceni

    wsaraceni Member

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    where would you find the genuine snp/bw stuff? is it the same stuff places like mojo supply sells?

    i guess the brown look is just from the cabinet being dirty? (unless of course its the two tone tan checkered that some purple cabs had)

    is that correct?
     
  7. StoneAge Cabs

    StoneAge Cabs Silver Supporting Member

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    https://secure.tubesandmore.com/
     
  8. ukslinger

    ukslinger Member

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    Thanks for the info. I guess my question stemmed from some of my recent gear quests. I have a Germino LV55 going into an Avatar 2x12 with 25 watt greenbacks. Its the bluesbreaker style cab with the s+p cover. I have read from some vintage Marshall guys that the original basketweaves have a great sound, but I didn't know if it would sound much different than my setup, well other than the 4x12 vs 2x12, but ya'll know what I mean.

    With the vintage cabs going for crazy prices, I didn't know if anyone was building the same style cabs with the original material or if it would actually make that much difference. Thanks.
     
  9. 908SSP

    908SSP Supporting Member

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    The current available Salt and Pepper cloth is the same as the old Salt and Pepper cloth. Which except for color is the same as the brown two tone basket weave and the single color cane basket weave. The thing is that the S&P cloth fades to a brown tan with a gray cast while the two tone brown fades to a brown tan color without the gray cast.

    They do sound different then modern black or checkerboard cloth I like it. I also use home made beam blockers.

    StoneAge does great reproductions of the old cabs.
     
  10. SatelliteAmps

    SatelliteAmps Member

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    Salt & Pepper and Basketweave are similar cloth, but different colors, and were used for different cabinets. They aren't really interchangeable. The single color cane has a much different acoustic properties.

    And I have to disagree that the repro cloth is an exact replica. It's close, and will work for some people, but it isn't close enough for my tastes. A lot of this depends on how close you want to be. To me, anything that claims to be a reproduction should be exactly that.

    For what it's worth, Antique Electronics Supply doesn't sell anything that is a GENUINE replica. They make good products, but it is all very obviously not original.
     
  11. StoneAge Cabs

    StoneAge Cabs Silver Supporting Member

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    Interesting viewpoint...AE Supply does not manufacture the cloth in ?....it is manufactured in the UK. They sell original [genuine] salt-n-pepper...no one ever suggested it was a 'replica'....it is the real deal....virtually identical to the original late 60's stuff.
     
  12. ukslinger

    ukslinger Member

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    So are any companies producing cabs that you would consider to be an original/true replica? I've always heard bogner makes excellent cabs, and it looks like they might use slightly different cloth. Or it could just be the color?
     
  13. plexirocker 68

    plexirocker 68 Member

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    I own some of the modern basketweave snp and I have a couple original cabs. So here's what I know for sure about these cabs.

    The last bit of snp grill I got was from Guitar Oasis over 15 years ago. I still have enough for a cab, it's mint and still rolled up, sold to me as the absolute real deal. It ain't, it's very very close for sure and virtually impossible to tell the difference unless you sit it side by side to a real deal cab. The actual strands-weaves are bigger,wider in circumference on the original cabs, this leads to a slightly tighter, less pourus pattern. The repo has a little more "air" between the strands. If my wife hadn't run off with the camera I'd post pics and you could see. I think it's the same stuff antique is selling BUT I'm not 100% sure.

    I have regrilled several 70's cabs with this grill cloth and this will definately improve the tone. The grill cloth has some "taming" acoustical properties for sure. Will it sound as good as the solid back cabs, well no but I have found that driving a wood screw from the "shitboard" back into the post with the grill cloth change does pretty much get you there.


    Buy a beat up 70's cab, use the repo grill cloth, it's certainly close enough for this application and put a screw thru the "shitboard' back into the post so it don't "woomph" on you and you'll have it

    plexi:)
     
  14. ukslinger

    ukslinger Member

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    Checked out a few sites and from what I've read here and other places, the brown cane weave was what I was refereing to. From what I have seen and the $4000 vintage price tags, I think those seem to be the more sought-after cabs. It looks like there are several different varieties of the cane covereings, but are the differences only in color?
     
  15. bosstone

    bosstone Member

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    It isn't the grille cloth as much as the cabs and speakers that were used.

    Beam Blockers block and defuse the sound differently and some speakers need them a lot more than others.
     
  16. kindburro

    kindburro Member

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    I think the last post will shed light on just why BW cabs command high prices. The speakers are crucial to the sound, period! The original G12M and G12H speakers with the Pulsonic cones have a unique sound quality. Some companies have tried to emulate these speakers and have come close, yet no one can deny the great sound quality that the old original speakers have. There are threads here you may search regarding Celestion "Pre Rola" G12M and G12H speakers for the inquiring minds.

    A BW cab will only bring big $$$ IF the speakers are correct with original cones, original speaker harness, original grille cloth and vinyl/levant in very good condition. Asking price and selling price are two different things.

    The S & P grill cloth was and still is maufactured by Somic of England. They made it originally. Different runs would vary in texture and weight. There were color variations also. It is my belief that there was one color only, what we call salt and pepper. Really it is twisted pieces of paper woven in the "basketweave" fashion. There was color variation from batch to batch. Pull any old BW cab apart and look at the edges that have not been exposed to light and you will see the original color. The black is really a blueish gray and the white a cream color, both fade as the paper was dyed prior to weaving. You end up with a color that is similar to what is now called "cane" which is a basketweave material where all threads are the same "honey" color. This is heavier in weave than the original S & P or current salt and pepper.

    Wood used was 11ply baltic birch that's 5/8" or 16mm. Cabs were finger jointed and backs were solid birch ply 1/2" or 13mm. Later checker board cabs used different bracing as time rolled by, like the reinforcement post for the cabinet back. The BW grille colth is thicker in comparison and has a dampening effect on the speakers and masks some high frequency.

    We have been building correct style 4 X 12's for several years with the
    S & P from Somic as well as the occasional use of the "cane" colored BW material. Baltic birch went up in price around the fall due to poor harvests and the devalue of the dollar. Real Baltic birch is imported from Finland or Russia in 5' X 5' sheets. There are a lot of companies who have gone to using a poplar/birch laminate as a result, trying to keep costs down.

    Beam blokers are a completely different approach and shouldn't be confused with the sonic properties of BW.

    Best to all,
    Greg Germino
    www.germinoamps.com
     
  17. StoneAge Cabs

    StoneAge Cabs Silver Supporting Member

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    Greg, you make some very good points:
    *I agree that cane is a bit thicker than snp...
    *snp likely varied from run to run...especially back in the 60's, as manufacturing methods were possibly??? not as sophisticated as they are today. But, I suppose it's possible Somic is still using the same methods & machines as they were 40 years ago??....this would explain why some say there is a difference between the 'old' & 'new'. If this IS the case, then who's to say just exactly what is original....:messedup...lol! Anyhoo, the SNP available today from the UK is definitely good enough for me.
     
  18. 908SSP

    908SSP Supporting Member

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    I agree with everything you said except the quote above. I was under the same impression till I got an original old 69 cab with two tone brown basket weave. Yes I opened it up and the edges are two shades of brown and light tan. When either of them fade the colors get closer together but the S&P has a gray cast to it that the brown doesn't have. I ran this past the guys on the Plexi Palace and the consensus was that indeed a brown basket weave was available in 68 and 69 right along side the S&P.
    You can see the difference in this picture the bottom cab is a 70 S&P the top is a 69 two tone brown basket weave.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Scumback Speakers

    Scumback Speakers Gold Supporting Member

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    I cover the old BW vs S&P cloth here in this 68 slant cab restoration thread, post #2.

    http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=214442

    Look down the pics to see an old 68 cab's original cloth, vs the new S&P from tubesandmore.com (which they claim is genuine Marshall S&P). It looks pretty spot on to me, if you look at the top of the baffle board where it's been protected for 40 years. You can also see fading out the yang, too.

    Top of baffle board pic.
    [​IMG]

    Extreme close-up showing old cloth underneath and new cloth on top.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. ukslinger

    ukslinger Member

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    So I have a JCM 800 cab I just got. Its got the standard celestion 75's in it which I'm not crazy about. If I were to recover it with some of the cane or s+p coverings listed above and get some scumbacks or the heritage greenbacks would I be pretty close to the real-deal? I think it would be a nice project to go with my LV55. I know the wood in the cab may be somewhat different, but I've read a few places that the older 800 cabs are a little better than the newer ones.

    Thanks for all the great info, and to Greg for a great amp.
     

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