Best speaker wattage?????

papersoul

Silver Supporting Member
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Is there such a thing? I read in a tube amp book that for guys playing small clubs should use 50 watt heads and lower wattage speakers....like 30-60 watts! I tend to use 80-100 watt speakers!!!!

Thoughts?
 

suparsonic

Member
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3,286
Hi wattage speakers will be more efficient, therefore louder. Which is good if you need a lot of headroom for cleaner tones. I prefer 25w speakers coz they break up at lower volumes, and you can crank the master volume up further for power amp gain.
 

suparsonic

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3,286
1.21 Jiggawatts of course.

On a serious note, to the above post, Wattage rating has absolutely nothing to do with speaker efficiency.

Jade
Why are my 20w speakers not as loud as my 70w speakers, in the same cab?
 

therhodeo

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10,122
Eminence Lynch Super - 150w 99db
Eminence Red Fang - 50w 103db

Eminence Wizard - 75w 103db
Eminence Black Mountain - 30w 101.3 db

Just examples of it working both ways. Like Jade said they're not related. I work for a company that makes plenty of speakers with high wattage and low efficiency numbers. I'm talking 5000 watts RMS and 89db efficiency.
 

walterw

Platinum Supporting Member
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I didn't say that higher wattage speakers COULDNT be more efficient. Simply that the two things are not directly related. The Wattage rating of a speaker is primarily determined by the size/weight of the voicecoil. How much heat it can dissipate before melting, or warping.

Efficiency on the other hand is determined by nearly every aspect of the speaker, from the cone, and the spider, to the magnet structure, voice coil gap size, Impedance, etc, etc, etc,

;)
Jade
this.

look at the "sensitivity" rating of a speaker. that spec will tell you more about how loud it is than the wattage.

think of it this way: a coathanger jammed into some speaker jacks will handle hundreds if not thousands of watts, but how loud will it be?

a 15 watt celestion alnico blue will be louder than a 65 watt g12-65 (unless you put 60 watts of power into it, at which point the blue will die and the g12-65 will keep going).
 

roflo

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374
I have a 22 watt Brown Note d'Lite amp and was going to put a M75 12" Scumback speaker in my cabinet.......will a higher watt Scum (65-90 watts) (same Model) give me more volume and headroom or is it best to get a speaker that is a little bit higher than the actual wattage (like 35 watts) of the amp for more effeciency.............I am confused on how to choose the wattage of the speakers also.
 

doveman

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927
I have a 22 watt Brown Note d'Lite amp and was going to put a M75 12" Scumback speaker in my cabinet.......will a higher watt Scum (65-90 watts) (same Model) give me more volume and headroom or is it best to get a speaker that is a little bit higher than the actual wattage (like 35 watts) of the amp for more effeciency.............I am confused on how to choose the wattage of the speakers also.
I have a D'Lite 22/33 running 6L6s right now. The thing about the D-Style amps is they don't really depend on the speaker break up to get the sound. My favorite speaker with the D-Lite is a 200w EVM12L ... partially because it is very efficient at 100db and allows me to easily play with a band with a 33w amp. I liked the sound of the 65w Celestion G1265 with the amp until I really turned it up loud ... got sort of flabby on the bass. Dropped that speaker in a 2x12 with a Scumback 65w M75-LHDC and really like the cabinet. But at 97db, it's still not quite as loud as the single EVM12L. So I would say go with the 65w model ... the M75-LHDC is a nice speaker.
 

papersoul

Silver Supporting Member
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13,971
Eminence Lynch Super - 150w 99db
Eminence Red Fang - 50w 103db

Eminence Wizard - 75w 103db
Eminence Black Mountain - 30w 101.3 db

Just examples of it working both ways. Like Jade said they're not related. I work for a company that makes plenty of speakers with high wattage and low efficiency numbers. I'm talking 5000 watts RMS and 89db efficiency.
Maybe that is why Eminence tells me the Super Vs which are 150 watts actually break up at lower volumes and can sound more vintage.

I have two 50 watt heads, one Egnater Mod 50 and one VHT 50/ST, I have one cab with Celestion (Elite) 80s which are tweaked CL80s for a touch more low end. These are 80 watts and 99db sensitivity. My other cab will have two Celestion G12K-100s - 100 watts, 99db. So far, no real complaints. I thoguht about how many people use 60 watt Vintage 30s with success and they ar 60 watts, but I believe the sensitivity is higher.

Since V-30s are 100 db and the G12-65 is 97db, maybe that accounts for the flabby bass?
 

GCDEF

Silver Supporting Member
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28,238
Is there such a thing? I read in a tube amp book that for guys playing small clubs should use 50 watt heads and lower wattage speakers....like 30-60 watts! I tend to use 80-100 watt speakers!!!!

Thoughts?
You can't make any generalizations like that. Use the amp and speakers that sound right for you and your situation. FWIW, speaker wattage is close to a meaningless spec. All it tells you is how much power they can safely handle. It has nothing to do with how they sound.
 

Scumback Speakers

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10,938
Since V-30s are 100 db and the G12-65 is 97db, maybe that accounts for the flabby bass?
In general, the 35 oz magnet (M75/G12M type) will not have as much bass as the 50 oz magnet (H75/V30/G12H30 type) since the larger magnet provides more bass due to it's size.

Other factors such as cone type (55 or 75 hz) used, suspension, doping applied & how thick/thin, plus cone treatments will affect the overall tone, and can modify the magnet's effect to a degree.

Power handling is, practically speaking, a guideline to how much power the speaker can handle before it melts the voice coil. I have people with 18w amps using 65w speakers because they like the tone of the 65w, and are fine with the breakup tone vs 25w models.

I'm going to be putting an old EV/SRO "coffee can" alnico (150w, 103db) with my 9 watt Scumbag amp to take out to local jams because the sensitivity is high enough to use it and not be drowned out by 20w amps with 100db or less speakers.

Sensitivity is the key to loudness of a speaker, not the power handling of the voice coil. Sensitivity is affected by the magnet size, cone type, suspension, etc. I've got an old P44 Celestion alnico here with a 15 oz alnico magnet and a 65w voice coil in it. Great for diming my 9w amp at home, since it's probably around 94-95 db. But put in that EV at 103 db and you can probably play a small club with a drummer. I'll know for sure Thursday night (if the rain doesn't keep me from driving!).
 

papersoul

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Thanks for that! So, my CL-80 and G12K-100s are both rated at 99db sens.

What does that tell me? Thanks!
 

Scumback Speakers

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Thanks for that! So, my CL-80 and G12K-100s are both rated at 99db sens.

What does that tell me? Thanks!
That you have two heavy magnet/50 oz ceramic Celestions, one with a 1777 cone and a large dust cap (CL-80) and the other is probably the 100w version.

But you're best advised to get the TXXXX codes from the sides of the frame (they're on every Celestion frame amongst the long string of numbers) and email drdecibel@celestion.com about what they are/aren't/etc.

In addition to that, you'll need to work on your technique and dexterity because H magnets are more articulate/defined than M magnets and will show your playing faults and clams with alarming clarity.

Bet you didn't realize that, huh? ;)

So stop typing and get practicing. :JAM
 

papersoul

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Interesting, Heavy Magnets show mistakes more easily? Didn't know that. I don't get intimidated by that because it can only make me a better player. I think that is why guys I know combine the Celestion T-75 with the CL-80.

What do you consider a medium magnet.....32oz? I guess with that you lose bass response.

I want to try your H75/M75 combo. That is the best of both worlds, M and H magnet.

Jim, I hear the Scumbacks are ultra thick sounding, thicker than most and warm? True? If so, count me in brother.
 

taco-man

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3,295
In addition to that, you'll need to work on your technique and dexterity because H magnets are more articulate/defined than M magnets and will show your playing faults and clams with alarming clarity.
I'm interested in learning more about this. I see Ceramic, Alnico, Ferrite... is that what you're referring to?
 

Scumback Speakers

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Jim, I hear the Scumbacks are ultra thick sounding, thicker than most and warm? True? If so, count me in brother.
They're warmer than most speakers, while still being articulate. Listen to these, they're recent concert clips (last Friday) of M75's. H75's have more bottom and a bit more bite than M75's. Mixed they are pretty fat sounding, although just M75's don't suck by any means. But you can decide that while listening to the clips. Two different cabs...one is my 69 spec straight cab (old 4x12 Marshall clone), the other is a Port City 4x12, same M75 65w 16 ohm speakers in each.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teFtID7maig&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATf8sDLt_p0&feature=channel

I'm interested in learning more about this. I see Ceramic, Alnico, Ferrite... is that what you're referring to?
The M & H models are ceramic magnet speakers (ferrite if you want to be technical, I guess). The more sensitive the speaker is, the louder and more articulate it generally is, revealing more tonal detail. That in turn reveals if you're sluffing notes, or other clams, as they're known. The magnet could be any type, but usually the higher the decibel rating, the more sensitive it is.
 

papersoul

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OK Jim so I am bit confused.......it is not the wattage that makes a speaker more articulate and revealing....it is more about the sensitivity rating or db value? I thought with the H and M magnets you were referring to heavy vs medium weight magnets. An example would be the 50 oz magnets in my Celestion G12K-100s. I thought you meant they would be very revealing. No? They are rated at about 99 db. I had Ear Candy Sugar Cones and those things were like 102 db. I actually haven't gotten this cab set up yet.

Your M75 specs remind me a bit of the Celestion G12-65s.

I was a bit confused when you said I would need to work on technique using H magnets since they are more revealing. Are you saying my CL-80 and G12K-100 use H magnets? So if it is generally the speaker weight, maybe that is why guys seem to like G12T-75s mixed with their CL-80s. However, I hear two G12K-100s are unreal so who knows, LOL! Is it a combination of the Heavye magnet AND high db rating that makes them so unforgiving? The speakers I am referring to are 99db. I have an old Celestion G12K-85 and that magnet does not seem as heavy as the CL-80 or G12K-100.

I can see why the H and M75 are such a good mix. They are on my list.

What I was really more curious about was how to determine in advance how revealing a speaker is by looking at specs.

Nice videos! Is Steve Stevens still using the BareKnuckle Rebel Yells. Those vids are with all M-75s????? Really warm. I wonder if I would prefer two M75s.
 
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Scumback Speakers

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OK Jim so I am bit confused.......it is not the wattage that makes a speaker more articulate and revealing....it is more about the sensitivity rating or db value?
Yes. A Cele Blue is only 15w, but it's very loud, and articulate.

I thought with the H and M magnets you were referring to heavy vs medium weight magnets. An example would be the 50 oz magnets in my Celestion G12K-100s. I thought you meant they would be very revealing. No? They are rated at about 99 db. I had Ear Candy Sugar Cones and those things were like 102 db. I actually haven't gotten this cab set up yet.
The heavier the magnet, all other things being equal, the louder and more sensitive they are. So a 35 oz medium weight magnet speaker isn't going to be as loud as a 50 oz heavy weight magnet speaker.

Your M75 specs remind me a bit of the Celestion G12-65s.
You can't equate specs to tone. G12-65's use a different cone, a large dust cap and different suspension, so they'll have a different tone than the M75. They do use the same size magnet, but this gets back to what I posted earlier about how other parts of the speaker affect the tone. Specs are only a starting point, not a tonal ending point.

I was a bit confused when you said I would need to work on technique using H magnets since they are more revealing. Are you saying my CL-80 and G12K-100 use H magnets?
As far as I know that's the magnet size, 50 oz heavy magnets.

So if it is generally the speaker weight, maybe that is why guys seem to like G12T-75s mixed with their CL-80s. However, I hear two G12K-100s are unreal so who knows, LOL! Is it a combination of the Heavye magnet AND high db rating that makes them so unforgiving? The speakers I am referring to are 99db. I have an old Celestion G12K-85 and that magnet does not seem as heavy as the CL-80 or G12K-100.
Mixing speakers is to provide a balance of tone from two different speaker models to achieve a particular overall tone. That could be why they do that.

I can see why the H and M75 are such a good mix. They are on my list.

What I was really more curious about was how to determine in advance how revealing a speaker is by looking at specs.
Specs don't have the whole story, as I've said above.

Nice videos! Is Steve Stevens still using the BareKnuckle Rebel Yells. Those vids are with all M-75s????? Really warm. I wonder if I would prefer two M75s.
Steve is still using BKP as far as I know, don't know which particular model. Those vids are all M75 65w model Scumback speakers.
 

famouspogs

Member
Messages
472
Don't wanna try and change the subject but. I once heard someone say that higher wattage speakers mean less cone cry, I was confused about that and wondered if that was true or not. Anyone got any information on that? Thanks
 

papersoul

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13,971
Thanks Jim,

Sounds like the M75s can still be pretty tight and good for hard rock! Maybe I'll do two M75s for my Egnater cab and a mix of the H75/M75 for my Randall cab. :banana

Is it OK to mix speakers if a different wattage? I find I do not like super clean speakers, high wattage, articulate speakers on their own. I prefer a mix. That is why I am trying the K-100/G65 mix, essentially a 100 watt speaker with a heavy magnet mixed with the 65 watter and medium weight magnet. You see any issues with doing that? Say someone mixed a 100 watt H75 with a 65 watt M75?

I often hear from Engineer minded friends that mixing speakers makes little sense and can cause phase issues.
 
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