Better than CAGED? the Bucky cadence chords 1+

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Clifford-D, Apr 27, 2016.

  1. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Bucky Pizzarelli has an out of print book called The Creative Guitarist.
    The idea is to use three note cadence chords. This cadence lays on the bottom voice of the chord.

    In the key of C the chords are
    Cmaj7
    ---------------------------------
    -5--------8--------12--------13
    -4--------7---------9---------12
    ---------------------------------
    -3--------7--------10--------12
    ---------------------------------

    In the key of F, the C7 chord is
    C7
    -------------------------------
    -5--------8--------11--------13
    -3--------7---------9----------
    -------------------------------14
    -3--------7--------10--------13
    --------------------------------

    As a iim7 or vim7, same cadence
    Cm
    -------------------------------
    -4--------8--------11--------8
    -3--------7---------8--------12
    -------------------------------
    -3--------6--------10--------12
    --------------------------------

    The C diminished chord
    ------------------------
    -4------7------10----13
    -2------5------8------11
    ------------------------
    -3------6------9------12
    ------------------------

    The C augmented chord
    ----------------
    -5------9-----11
    -3------7------9
    ----------------
    -3------7-----11
    ----------------

    Use them with chromatics
    F7
    ---------------------------------
    -13-----11----10------6------4
    -12------9------8-------------2
    -------------------------7------
    -12------9------8------6------3
    ---------------------------------

    Use them as punch chords between lines
    A7.................................................D7
    ---------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------14---10-----7
    ---------9--11--12--14------12-----------5
    -9--11------------------------------11----
    -------------------------------12---10-----5
    ----------------------------------------------

    Anyway, that's a very small snippet of this great out of print book. Hope you get some value in this musical approach to chord melody and learning the fretboard :)

    And ask questions or add to this super brief intro, this tease.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2016
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  2. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    Cliff, I think my Mister Natch kicked in cause I can't make sense of your lines and numbers. Would like to check it out. I have another Bucky book called Power Guitar that is an awesome Freddie Green primer.
     
  3. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    So you can't read computer tab? Or is it al out of alignment?
     
  4. guitarjazz

    guitarjazz Member

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    It's better on my phone (or did you change it?). In any case thx for posting. Bucky rocks.
     
  5. JonR

    JonR Member

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    "This cadence lays on the bottom voice of the chord" - :confused: I have no idea what that means.

    Its obviously a misuse of the word "cadence" (which is an important music theory term with only one meaning... so far...)

    The chord voicings are nice, for sure. Open voicings incorporating extensions, in various position options. Useful (if you understand your chord structures and your voice-leading). They're just nothing to do with "cadences". I'm surprised a musician like BP would misuse (or redefine) a term like that.
     
  6. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Yes, that is Bucky's use of the term. What I see is the chord tones.
    Anyway, the idea is simple, it's meant to be simple, as a foundation to build on.

    This is completely different than the CAGED chords. One attractive thing is it gives you lots to play in a chord/line way.
    Play a line, punch in a chord, continue. The CAGED system shows you a quick way to find the notes of the triad, but it's not really musical. The CAGED system could be used with these Bucky chords, but what I noticed was that I just had no need to think CAGED at all. CAGED has no harmonic motion, it's just static.

    The three note chord idea is used by just about all the guitarists I'm interested in. Goodrick, Miller, Metheny, Scofield, Lage,,, they all can play the Ted Greene chords that are big stretchy chords but opt for smaller voicings. Bucky's approach is but one. Randy Vincent has his Three Note Voicings book that is a number of steps above Bucky's chord idea, it's basically the next step.

    I recently had a tgp'r ask me for a copy and I did that for him. I copied and put a comb binding on it and shipped it to him. This book is going for $150 on eBay for a used book. That's nuts. They need to produce the book, they being Mel Bay or similar.
     
  7. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    So this would be I - iii - V - vi ?

    That V looks like a 6th without a minor or maj 7th?
     
  8. huw

    huw Member

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    I think they are all to be viewed as subs for Cmaj7...

    There's Cmaj7. Cadd9, Cmaj7, & C6

    They all omit a note that would be needed for a complete spelling, but with a band they can stand in for those chords.

    Or just think of them all as different shades of C, which is probably the idea.

    :)
     
  9. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    That makes sense. I was a little confused, I think because of the cadence thing.
     
  10. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    What are these nuances of CAGED? : )
     
  11. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Not really, IMO. It's using partial extended chords, but it could still be seen as derived from the CAGED shapes - if you wanted to, that is ;).
    I.e., the CAGED shapes are embedded in the guitar fretboard anyway, you can't escape them. It's just a matter of how you see them, and what you call them.
    As an example...

    Cmaj7
    ---------------------------------
    -5--------8--------12--------13
    -4--------7---------9---------12
    ---------------------------------
    -3--------7--------10--------12
    ---------------------------------

    shape 1 = "A" form (R-7-3)
    shape 2 = "G" form (3-9-5)
    shape 3 = "E" form (5-3-7 - admittedly extended up into the "D" position on 2nd string)
    shape 4 = "C" form (13-5-R)

    Of course, CAGED (AFAIK) struggles a little with minor and (especially) dim forms. But otherwise the only limitations of CAGED are ones we choose to impose.
    As I say, it's just the way the neck is. Major chords (at least) - maj7s or dom7s, along with all their potential extensions and alterations - happen to be based on 5 shapes - which all overlap, so you can often (with a little stretch) combine two neighbouring ones. We don't have to call those shapes "C A G E D", if it confuses things - but it's hard not to see them that way.

    What BP is doing certainly doesn't have to be based on CAGED or linked with it (consciously) in any way at all. It just depends on knowing your chord structures and how to find the voicings you want. (And it's good that he's recommended some nice 3-note open voicings. Alternatives are of those are of course possible (various combinations of 3-5-7-9-13), and these certainly inspire me to work some out.
    That's only like saying the C major scale is "not really musical" ;). The CAGED system starts with the triad arpeggios - it goes way beyond there.
    Again, that's an artificial limitation. The fretboard is "static", after all. The notes are fixed where they are (in EADGBE anyway). CAGED is only a way of labelling the patterns that are there. (A controversial way, I admit.)

    Right. Or we could all just work this sort of thing out for ourselves... ;) Free of charge, and probably learn more efficiently in the process. (Maybe more slowly, I'll grant you.)
     
  12. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Let me take a stab at Bucky's use of cadence.

    Usually a cadence is at least two chords that create the feeling of an ending such as V7 to I. The chords Bucky is calling cadence chords are resolution chords. If you're playing over a static C chord and you play a Dm arp in your solo you want to resolve the tension back into the C chord. If we're playing C7 as the cadence chord, we know we can step out and precede the cadence chord with a diminished scale or something that steps out a bit and then end your line on a resolute C7.

    Bucky also gives examples of jazz standards and his use of these cadence chords on tunes like Body and Soul, and Afternoon In Paris, plus others.

    Does this Bucky cadence explanation float?
     
  13. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Yes, but that's nothing to do with these chord shapes. These shapes can obviously be applied to cadences - but so can any chord shape.
     
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  14. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    I question people more new to chord melody being able to see the Cadd9 or Em7 within the CAGED shapes with ease.

    This is a book that actually shows you how to play something in a relaxed natural way. Chord Chemistry shows you amazing chords, overwhelming chords in fact. Ted also has Modern Chord Progressions in an attempt to use these chord in popular progressions, but imo, it becomes more "cut and paste" and that is not very creative.

    I would say this Bucky idea would work better in a combo than for solo guitar as it doesn't deal much with the underlying bass line. It could work in short usage, but I want to hear the bass movement with solo guitar. But in a combo it can help create lots of interesting sounds.

    It's not meant to be an "everything" book. I have a book of Bucky's solo guitar transcriptions and you don't see much of these ideas in it. But like I suggested, this is not as much a solo guitar concept as it is a way to play in a combo.
     
  15. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Just a major scale? What if the chord in the tune was dominant, or minor, or diminished, how does the CAGED chords help? Or does it only come out to play when there is an Ionian situation?

    But that's not the real world, the real world says "play those minor chords all over the neck, and complement that minor chord with all the other notes in the scale. Or even the notes not in the scale. The real world does not just sit on an Imaj7 so you can mess with the CAGED grid, that is an activity for practice, a really good practice. Bring the CAGED concept out in practice, but leave it at home when you go out to play.

    Look how easy Body and Soul becomes with Bucky chords

    Eb_Bb__Eb_Ab_Db_ Eb__F__Fbdim
    --------------------------------------
    -7----6----7----4----6----7----9----8
    -6----5----6----3----5----6----8----6
    --------------------------------------
    -6----5----7----3----4----6----8----7
    --------------------------------------

    And with a solo

    Ebm7..............Bb7.........Ebm7.....Ab7...........Dbmaj7
    ---------6------------------|------6-------4--------|--
    -7--9------7-----6--------|-7---------4----7--4---|-6
    -6----------------5--------|-6---------3------------|-5
    -------------------------8-|-------------------------|--
    -6----------------5--------|-6---------3------------|-4
    ----------------------------|-------------------------|--
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2016
  16. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    It really has nothing to do with CAGED so let that connection go. Just mess with it and if you get some value from it, great. If not, well, you still have your CAGED system. : )
     
  17. gennation

    gennation Member

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    I've been preaching these harmonies within a chord here for years. R 3 5 (and one variable of 6 or 7) and the particular chords from them.

    Like for C Major, play C, Em, and Am
    For Dm play Dm, F, Am
    For G7 play G, Bm7b5, Dm7

    Looking at them here they relate to C Major, Key wise it also shows you the "tonic" chords in the Key of C are C Em and Am. And it shows the non-tonic chords in the Key of C are Dm F G and Bmb5.
     
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  18. Bryan T

    Bryan T guitar owner Silver Supporting Member

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    When I first glanced at this thread, I assumed it was just inversions of drop-2 voicings with three notes selected. Now that I realize it isn't, I'm not really sure what to think.
     
  19. markbosko

    markbosko Member

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    and his drop2 voicings are both fantastic.
     
  20. Bryan T

    Bryan T guitar owner Silver Supporting Member

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    This is where I thought it was heading:

    Cmaj7

    Code:
    ---------------------------------
    -5--------8--------12--------13
    -4--------5---------9---------12
    ---------------------------------
    -3--------7--------10--------14
    ---------------------------------
    
     

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