"Big Iron" Benefits?

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by benjammin, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. benjammin

    benjammin Member

    Messages:
    401
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Location:
    YES WE CAN
    I didn't want to derail from the Scottl Ampfest thread, so I thought I'd post this in a new one. Everyone seemed to agree that the Bludotone "Big Iron" amplifier that I believe was Laz's was a huge favorite, and I was wondering if anyone had any information about this.

    What's the advantage of using larger, higher voltage transformers in an amp of this style? I've been strongly considering doing a scratch build based on the D'Lite specs and was wondering if the Big Iron is worthwhile and what the science behind it is. Any of you amp geniuses out there? :) :munch
     
  2. benjammin

    benjammin Member

    Messages:
    401
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Location:
    YES WE CAN
    Gonna give this one a bump. Can anyone shed some light for me?
     
  3. scottl

    scottl Member

    Messages:
    17,041
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Location:
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    First of all, Laz's big iron amp was a pleaser, but several such as myself and Pinner preferred the OD tones of my Bluesmaster. Undoubtedly the Brown Suede amp is killer though. Just not really any better, just different. I would like one like Laz's though for variety sake, but the dirty cleans and chewy thick OD of my Bluesmaster is what I love most. The two amps have vastly different circuits so you can't comapre the tones and attribute the differences to the iron, unfortunately.

    Just clarifying the huge favorite comment....

    As far as voltage specs, the big iron has nothing to do with that. The big iron just means that the output really handles the low stuff without saturating and there is a depth in the lows that gives the amp 3d girth. As a rule of thumb, stuff the biggest output you can fit in your build. I'd do M6 steel and amke sure your plate to plate impedences are where you spec it.

    100 watt will gove you the tone. Build a 100 watter.... Why are you stuck on D'lite specs?? Why not Bludo specs? Or Dumble specs? Just wondering....

     
  4. benjammin

    benjammin Member

    Messages:
    401
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Location:
    YES WE CAN
    Well, Moss at D'Lite has always been friendly, especially with providing the means to do a scratch build (will sell empty chassis and head cabs at a decent price) as well as being endlessly helpful and open about amp building. Looking forward to giving him my business. I was thinking of building the 44watt D'Lite with the Bluesmaster circuit, so we're on the same page there. Thanks for clearing up the effect of the output! Do you think there would be a huge tonal improvement from a 100watt compared to my planned 44watt build?
     
  5. scottl

    scottl Member

    Messages:
    17,041
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Location:
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    I would not under any circumstance do a BM44. The Bluesmaster only sounds good as a 100 watter, IMHO. I have had the Dlite BM44 here, as well as my Glaswerks. I just don't like the aggressiveness of the lower wattage Bluesmasters. I even prefer the other circuits as 100 watters, but at least the lower wattage ones are smoother. Be mindful that the Bluesmaster is much much louder than the regular style. If you are a bedroom and/or lower volume guy, do not do a Bluesmaster. Plus they need the loop.

    Maybe do his 44 watt ODE.

    Also, my Brownnote BM100 is back at their shop getting bigger iron as its smaller iron was definately causing a constricted 2d tone when compared to the bigger Bludo iron amps....

    Bigger the better with these things.....

    Lastly, don't base your build off of the 22 watt schematic. Maybe Moss can help you with the correct values and components. Just getting the headbox and chassis from him doesn't lock you into specific circuit values.

     
  6. pinner

    pinner Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    3,638
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2007
    Location:
    Mount Laurel, NJ
    Dumb question. Could you put a 100 watt iron in a 50 watt amp for some sound benefit?
     
  7. Sean French

    Sean French Supporting Member

    Messages:
    13,633
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2007
    Location:
    Texas

    My Carol-Ann OD-2 50 watter has a 100 watt tranny.
    Alan told me he didn't care for the sound/feel with a 50 watt tranny.
    So,he uses a 100 watt tranny for the 50 watters.
    I have no clue as to the technical benefits though.
    All I know it it sounds and feels amazing.
     
  8. benjammin

    benjammin Member

    Messages:
    401
    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Location:
    YES WE CAN
    Hmm, interesting. I was looking at the Bluesmaster because I liked the clean/jazz tones. Think it's too powerful for small club gigs? God knows the drummer won't like being drowned out :p
     
  9. scottl

    scottl Member

    Messages:
    17,041
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Location:
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    Should be ok, but for best benefit, you may want to use an attenuator on minimal attenuation...like -3db. I like the bright cap on the master and the external Dumbleator. With that setup, I need to run the master up at 11am minimum. That is really loud. THe attenuator fixes it with little tonal loss. Better than the alternative of lowering the master (thin tone from too much bright cap).

     
  10. scottl

    scottl Member

    Messages:
    17,041
    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Location:
    Cherry Hill, NJ
    100 watt iron has half the plate to plate impedence. You'd have to mismatch the internal hookup to get the loading right. I think the trannies 4 ohm would be used for 8 ohm cabs and 8 ohm for 16 cabs. That may be why Alan only has an 8 and 16 ohm tap. Of course, you could order it custom tapped from Heyboer or equivelent.

     
  11. pinner

    pinner Silver Supporting Member

    Messages:
    3,638
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2007
    Location:
    Mount Laurel, NJ
    I wonder how much difference there would be if I changed out to 50 watt iron in my Fuchs bassman mod to 100??? Probably wouldn't fit!?
     
  12. LVC

    LVC Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,021
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Location:
    Sussex County, NJ
    Need looser fitting undergarments to pack the "big iron":p
     
  13. brownnote

    brownnote Member

    Messages:
    218
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Location:
    Sacramento / San Francisco
    Well I'll probably get my hair blown back by Ol' Dog Ears on this one, but I still prefer the smaller iron.

    It sings easily, and I absolutely LOVE the BM44.

    For most applications I'd recommend it over the 100w, but that's just me.

    It doesn't need an attenuator, umbleator, boost pedal or anything else to get into the sweet spot.

    I play clubs, and the volume level is perfect for that.

    Recently I demo'd some amps on a huge outdoor stage, with wind blowing, and the 44w was preferred over the 100w.

    No matter what the factors are, it's still a subjective thing.
    I really don't think there's a right or wrong on this...

    BTW, I have a twin output here and it's damn near the same size as our 44.
     
  14. jimbo13

    jimbo13 Member

    Messages:
    446
    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    I think a lot of the people on this site use a relatively distorted sound as their main tone. If you use distortion the majority of the time, the higher output may not be as important to you. However, I feel that the added low end definition provided by the higher power versions when on the cleaner settings adds a lot more versatility. If the clean channel is too overdriven at the volume needed on stage, all the channels tend to become very similar. What is the use of having a lead channel if the clean channel is already overdriven??? For my personal use, I like a clean channel ( slight dirt with nice low end dynamics ) and a lead channel that compresses slightly. Luckily, I am working with a builder who understands this and is allowing me to upgrade to the bigger iron.
     
  15. Roccaforte Amps

    Roccaforte Amps Member

    Messages:
    6,120
    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    larger output transformer=better bass response
     
  16. Dr. Tweedbucket

    Dr. Tweedbucket Deluxe model available !!!11

    Messages:
    45,478
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2007
    Location:
    Gamma Ray detection station on Mt. Kwakkleberry
    100W vs 50W

    100W to my ears has always sounded beefier ( fatter lows and low mids ) :YinYang


    50W is fine, but less beefy :)


    If you don't think you need 100W of power, buy a 100W anyway and either pull 2 tubes, or install a 1/2 power switch.... and there ya go, 50watts. If you ever play an outdoor gig where you can let it breath, then POW! there ya go, you have that 100W option.

    I had a 50W Marshall MK11 and a 100W superlead. The MK11 sounded good, but when I plugged into the 100W, I realized that something was missing with the 50W :dunno
     
  17. LVC

    LVC Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,021
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Location:
    Sussex County, NJ
    I was wondering why everybody loved the tone and feel of my 100 watt EL34 Bludo amp.

    So I opened her up and took a closer look.

    This is what I found tucked inside the tobacco suede head

    <><><><><><><><><><><><>

    [​IMG]

    <><><><><><><><><><><><>
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2008
  18. jspax7

    jspax7 Member

    Messages:
    2,226
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Location:
    CA
    I'm a low-watt guy like you, Moss. So I'm gonna go out on a limb and agree with you. It's simply a matter of personal taste, as well as knowing that I'm getting exactly what I want out of my amp.

    BTW, I play my ODE prototype with 6V6's (22 watts) and it is perfect for everything from jazzy trios sans drums to a 6 piece cover band in clubs. I even used it outdoors recently at "Folsom Live". Didn't even break a sweat. (well, at least the amp didn't... It was nearly 100 degrees that day.)
     
  19. LVC

    LVC Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,021
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2005
    Location:
    Sussex County, NJ
    to each his own as I always say --- but I have gone through a lot of these style amps -- Heard most of the more popular names around here side by side and my conclusion .....

    You need a 100 watts of juice for the real magic to happen with d Style amps ... not saying 50 sounds bad --- the 50 and under watt amps put out by the top builders sound fine and dandy .....

    The amps (regardless of the maker) -- just sound and respond better (at least to me) with 100 horses under the hood.
     
  20. jspax7

    jspax7 Member

    Messages:
    2,226
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Location:
    CA
    I played through a Mesa Triaxis/2:90 rig for at least a decade. When I needed the power, nothing else would do. I also understand from those more experienced with Dumbles that 100 watts is the choice of most players. There has to be a reason. Not comparing the Mesa to the Dumble style, btw... I have been bitten, I can't go back.

    My opinion is based on my experience and my (current) needs. I always appreciate your insight, as well as others such as Scott, who have far more experience than I do with these amps. I have only compared an Emerald Pro 50 watt with Fuchs ODS 30 and 50, and Brown Note 22/33 and 44 HRM. I'm sure I'd love your Bludo.

    There are some amazing amps out there. Many good enough (even according to former Dumble owners) to please the most finicky players. Something for everyone.

    I reserve the right to change my opinion based on my experience, but for now, I'm a very happy camper with my ODS30, and D'lite.
     

Share This Page