Boost or EQ?

[Kaiser]

Why buy a boost pedal if you can boost the signal with an EQ pedal??

 

[Moe45673]

A number of reasons. One of them being you may want to use the eq pedal for tone shaping. Using EQ as a boost function, IMO, is limiting the usefulness of an EQ.

 

[TheUsualSuspect]

well, if you like your tone and it has what you need - then a clean boost is perfect......If you need to shape the boosted tone - then a good EQ is a better solution....

Each have their merits and are better choices in certain situations.......

 

[TheUsualSuspect]

Originally posted by Moe45673
A number of reasons. One of them being you may want to use the eq pedal for tone shaping. Using EQ as a boost function, IMO, is limiting the usefulness of an EQ.

eh, not necessarily - you could have two eqs for different uses - you arent limited to "one eq per pedalboard".....And if a EQ works better for the boost due to shaping (no matter how minimal the tone is to be shaped) then its not limiting its usefulness.....

 

[Kaiser]

thanks, I'll be using it for tone shaping and boost.

the idea of more than one EQ pedal is something to consider.

I guess you're right, there might be situations where one of them can be a better choice, I'll keep experimenting, though.

 

[StompBoxBlues]

Yeah...I'm leaning towards that too, using two EQ's.

I bought a GE-7, modded it so it is quiet now, and liking it enough that I think I will get another and mod it too.

The difficulty with a pedal, at least for me, like a 7-band EQ is...it's hard to keep tweaking and tweaking, and also hard to keep myself in check and not tweak MUCH.

I mean, it is just in my nature, but I use my ears and there is no need to have adjusted ALL the bands...usually a couple of them alone do nicely and usually not by very much.

I do find that at higher volumes, that wonderful sound you got at bedroom levels is no longer the nice sound it was.

 

[TheUsualSuspect]

Originally posted by StompBoxBlues

I do find that at higher volumes, that wonderful sound you got at bedroom levels is no longer the nice sound it was.

This is what makes an EQ so indespensible to the club gigging musician......If we go to a big place, we can crank the amps and get good tone.....but if we do a small place, we cant - by using an eq I can get those lows & mids where they need to be to fatten things up....tweaking those frequencies that are just missing or too prevelent when playing a low volumes....

 

[HitTheCity]

I have two eq pedals on my board at the moment. One I use for tone shaping and is always engaged. The other I use purely as a clean boost to lift my solos. I am actually looking to replace the one I use as a boost with a proper boost pedal though, because the 15db of boost it offers is not quite enough. At the moment, I'm looking at an Xotic RC Booster...

 

[drbob1]

As a boost, I've found some EQ pedals have more noise and tone mangling than a straight clean boost.

 

[Kaiser]

I do find that at higher volumes, that wonderful sound you got at bedroom levels is no longer the nice sound it was.

That's right!!

This is what makes an EQ so indespensible to the club gigging musician......If we go to a big place, we can crank the amps and get good tone.....but if we do a small place, we cant - by using an eq I can get those lows & mids where they need to be to fatten things up....tweaking those frequencies that are just missing or too prevelent when playing a low volumes....

Toatally agree with you.

 

[StompBoxBlues]

Originally posted by TheUsualSuspect
This is what makes an EQ so indespensible to the club gigging musician......If we go to a big place, we can crank the amps and get good tone.....but if we do a small place, we cant - by using an eq I can get those lows & mids where they need to be to fatten things up....tweaking those frequencies that are just missing or too prevelent when playing a low volumes....

This is interesting though...I'd like to hear/learn about this once and for all, because I do forget...

I always thought (and seems to me I experienced too) what you are describing. That at HIGH volumes the bass and mids tend to be more prevalent in relation to the same settings at lower volumes.

But I have read numerous times on forums and threads, that the common knowledge is that it is bass & highs that get more prevalent at higher volumes in relation to same settings on lower volumes.

This would tend to be bourne out by, for one example the two switched on a THD HotPlate, one for lows (compensation...raising the lows for playing at lower volumes in attempt to keep tone same as at high) and HIGHS (for the same).

So which is it? Or is this variable depending on the amp, speakers, etc.?


Anyone know definitively? Because it DOES seem to me that it is mids and lows.

 

[TheUsualSuspect]

Originally posted by StompBoxBlues
This is interesting though...I'd like to hear/learn about this once and for all, because I do forget...

I always thought (and seems to me I experienced too) what you are describing. That at HIGH volumes the bass and mids tend to be more prevalent in relation to the same settings at lower volumes.

But I have read numerous times on forums and threads, that the common knowledge is that it is bass & highs that get more prevalent at higher volumes in relation to same settings on lower volumes.

This would tend to be bourne out by, for one example the two switched on a THD HotPlate, one for lows (compensation...raising the lows for playing at lower volumes in attempt to keep tone same as at high) and HIGHS (for the same).

So which is it? Or is this variable depending on the amp, speakers, etc.?


Anyone know definitively? Because it DOES seem to me that it is mids and lows.

Heck with volumes & relationships (I dont even want to go there - cuz it doesnt matter in real life when moving from place to place - too many other variables are more important) - its all about the rooms for me.....Some places are all wood and carpeted stages and things are resonant...Some places are concrete & hardwoods and inherently thin sounding.....

I couldnt give a horses patoot about relationships to volumes & frequencies - it doesnt matter to me and shouldnt too any gigging musician unless they play the same place or very, very similar places.....For me, the main concern is acoustic properties.....

When I walk into a place and its all hardwood & high ceilings - its an immediate uh-oh.....But an eq will help, cuz I cant turn up (sound carries & bounces) and highs will carry and lows will dissappear......

If I walk into a carpeted wood stage & solid wood walls, I am smiling and wont be using an EQ at all......

Of course, I use a 2x12 cab for convience - this is far more susceptible to position and room acoustics than a 4x12 might be - but either way - IMO, anyone who doesnt take any room acoustics into consideration and wonders why their "Tone went away from practice" at such and such a gig - well, they need to pay more attention to surroundings and might be better served taking a class or getting involved into other things like sound mixing or home theater......

Might be more prevelant for me as I did extensive research on acoustics and built a studio/theater for band practice and incorproated many acoustic properties into it....Unfortunately, no club will ever sound as good as our practice space - but we can "turn up" without hurting ears because of this and everyone that ever plays there enjoys it.....

------------

Short version - whenever you cant turn up, the acoustics that cause this will make highs bounce all over and lows dissapear (concrete, hardwood floors).....
When you can turn up - its usually because of the acoustics that make lows resonant and highs dissapate (carpet, drywall, wood walls, etc).....

Why is hardwood floor bad & wood walls good - Wood floors are laminated and sealed - they dont resonate as well....They tend to reflect sound....

 

[Kaiser]

what about open spaces??

 

[TheUsualSuspect]

Originally posted by Kaiser
what about open spaces??

Wide open spaces will cause the lows to disappear from open cabs - they need to bounce.....But the highs will hardly ever be a problem.....

Wide open spaces make closed back cabs indespensible....

Most of the time- they arent a problem in any form - you can turn up....the only time its a problem is when you lack power....

 

[StompBoxBlues]

Originally posted by TheUsualSuspect
Heck with volumes & relationships (I dont even want to go there - cuz it doesnt matter in real life when moving from place to place - too many other variables are more important) - its all about the rooms for me.....Some places are all wood and carpeted stages and things are resonant...Some places are concrete & hardwoods and inherently thin sounding.....

I couldnt give a horses patoot about relationships to volumes & frequencies - it doesnt matter to me and shouldnt too any gigging musician unless they play the same place or very, very similar places.....For me, the main concern is acoustic properties.....

When I walk into a place and its all hardwood & high ceilings - its an immediate uh-oh.....But an eq will help, cuz I cant turn up (sound carries & bounces) and highs will carry and lows will dissappear......

If I walk into a carpeted wood stage & solid wood walls, I am smiling and wont be using an EQ at all......

Of course, I use a 2x12 cab for convience - this is far more susceptible to position and room acoustics than a 4x12 might be - but either way - IMO, anyone who doesnt take any room acoustics into consideration and wonders why their "Tone went away from practice" at such and such a gig - well, they need to pay more attention to surroundings and might be better served taking a class or getting involved into other things like sound mixing or home theater......

Might be more prevelant for me as I did extensive research on acoustics and built a studio/theater for band practice and incorproated many acoustic properties into it....Unfortunately, no club will ever sound as good as our practice space - but we can "turn up" without hurting ears because of this and everyone that ever plays there enjoys it.....

------------

Short version - whenever you cant turn up, the acoustics that cause this will make highs bounce all over and lows dissapear (concrete, hardwood floors).....
When you can turn up - its usually because of the acoustics that make lows resonant and highs dissapate (carpet, drywall, wood walls, etc).....

Why is hardwood floor bad & wood walls good - Wood floors are laminated and sealed - they dont resonate as well....They tend to reflect sound....

While those are good points, these are both seperate issues, AND they overlap.

It DOES matter to me about the frequency changes as volume increases, even in the same room.

And it is definitely something you consider also in the environment, and that different environments will affect it all differently.

But my question was pretty concrete too, if at a certain volume I have a sound, and I raise the volume considerably, which (seperating them into only three bass, mid, and high) bands will be affected most...which will become more prominant in the same room?


It's a valid question, and can help in getting the right sound in any room too...as well as the rooms own acoustics, and the specifics of your rig (open vs. closed back, how far away...etc).

I mean, you can go as deep as you want into this. A humid day will produce a different sound than the same settings on a dry day, on the same outdoor stage, etc.

But the freq.'s that get boosted most when you raise the volume, with all else being equal, ought to be more predictable. You have more info on that and it helps with the rest.

 

[TheUsualSuspect]

Originally posted by StompBoxBlues
While those are good points, these are both seperate issues, AND they overlap.

It DOES matter to me about the frequency changes as volume increases, even in the same room.

And it is definitely something you consider also in the environment, and that different environments will affect it all differently.

But my question was pretty concrete too, if at a certain volume I have a sound, and I raise the volume considerably, which (seperating them into only three bass, mid, and high) bands will be affected most...which will become more prominant in the same room?


It's a valid question, and can help in getting the right sound in any room too...as well as the rooms own acoustics, and the specifics of your rig (open vs. closed back, how far away...etc).

I mean, you can go as deep as you want into this. A humid day will produce a different sound than the same settings on a dry day, on the same outdoor stage, etc.

But the freq.'s that get boosted most when you raise the volume, with all else being equal, ought to be more predictable. You have more info on that and it helps with the rest.

I didnt say it wasnt valid - it isnt valid to me and it isnt to many situations - I can only get so loud in any given situation with the limitations of sound/decibel requirements of certain clubs.....

Although, what you are saying has merit - I dont have any use for it but I am sure others might.....Its more a technical than actual implementation question as I see it.....

I do see them as seperate issues but I dont see where they overlap in situations as present themselves to me - your question is more directed in an "experiment".....The only way I see anything predictable in the same room environment - in my experience - it changes per environment on how the room responds (acoustics) to the volume increase.....

The head/amp itself is definitely the same - but the resulting sounds will always be different......I am relatively sure any electrical engineer can respond to your question in a manner that will satisfy your inquiry....

But none of that response will help you much in making EQ adjustments - because any sound engineer will tell the reason for EQing *is* about the environment - not the volume.....

-------
If you are saying - If I turn up at practice - how do I adjust my eq? Then thats another question altogether.....My valid use for an eq is going from club to club and the difference that present themselves from club to club.....

 

[StompBoxBlues]

I'm sure you know what is valid for you or not...but let me just run one scenario by you then.

You are in some environment, you start out the evening at lower volumes and have your sound just right.

As the night wears on, the levels start creeping a little in the whole band, maybe also the setlist has a buildup and it starts getting louder. You need to adjust your volume (both "regular" for backup and comp, and solo levels...either chosen through channels on a two-channel amp, or with a boost pedal, whatever) and you find your sound changing in the wrong way.
It suddenly is not cutting through the same way it was, and it just doesn't sound as good.

It would be good at a time like that to know which knobs are most likey to get that sound back in line, no?

This isn't "theoretical" or "experimental"...this happens, and usually you don't have a lot of time to adjust, listen, adjust, listen, so it is best if you know what happens to the sound as volume increases. This can help one do minimal and least adjustments to get it back.

Or the opposite...you got a great sound, the bar owner tells you "turn it the hell DOWN, and I mean it" and suddenly you lose "that" sound. It's good to know the physics of what is happening, to help quicker recovery of as much of the tone as you can.

Here's the key...it is the SAME environment. That ship has sailed. You are in the same room, granted at higher volumes reflections may travel longer/further, but generally that is the constant. THe variable is the volume coming out of your amp.

 

[TheUsualSuspect]

Originally posted by StompBoxBlues
I'm sure you know what is valid for you or not...but let me just run one scenario by you then.

You are in some environment, you start out the evening at lower volumes and have your sound just right.

As the night wears on, the levels start creeping a little in the whole band, maybe also the setlist has a buildup and it starts getting louder. You need to adjust your volume (both "regular" for backup and comp, and solo levels...either chosen through channels on a two-channel amp, or with a boost pedal, whatever) and you find your sound changing in the wrong way.
It suddenly is not cutting through the same way it was, and it just doesn't sound as good.

It would be good at a time like that to know which knobs are most likey to get that sound back in line, no?

This isn't "theoretical" or "experimental"...this happens, and usually you don't have a lot of time to adjust, listen, adjust, listen, so it is best if you know what happens to the sound as volume increases. This can help one do minimal and least adjustments to get it back.

Or the opposite...you got a great sound, the bar owner tells you "turn it the hell DOWN, and I mean it" and suddenly you lose "that" sound. It's good to know the physics of what is happening, to help quicker recovery of as much of the tone as you can.

Here's the key...it is the SAME environment. That ship has sailed. You are in the same room, granted at higher volumes reflections may travel longer/further, but generally that is the constant. THe variable is the volume coming out of your amp.

Well, none of those "adjustments" should never be enough to make wide ranging variations to the overall tone.....Almost impossible....And I simply would never get anal enough to worry about it....

Once I have the general tone dialed in - any minor volume changes wont effect it enough to make a difference in the band situation......

I will admit I have never encountered such a scenario....Thats the sound man's job to make those adjustments.....We would NEVER turn up on stage throughout the night - I learned long ago what a major mistake that is.....The FOH mix is always louder than stage volume in our setups....

I suppose anything is possible tho....

 

[TheUsualSuspect]

Anyways, in response to your original question....

The problem as I see it is its very possible every amp responds a different way.....I am not sure....Again, you are in the technical aspects that I wouldnt have any knowledge.

I would think you will have to "know your own amp" and expereince these situations in order to make the adjustmnets...

Asking guys at the amp forum of HC might get you the answer YOU need for your concern.....

 

[StompBoxBlues]

Yeah...thanks, I get it. Folk that even bother thinking about this are "anal" about their sound, and besides it is just unimportant and useless information, all theory, has nothing to do with the "real" world.

Great. Now could I hear from someone that knows physics relates to the real world, or that just plain knows which of the three (general) frequencies get more prominent as volume goes up?