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Boss Buffers, New Vs. Old Pedals?

Melldo

Member
Messages
416
In my humble opinion, the differences Boss pedals make to your basic tone are very slight. With some there can be a wee bit of a high and indeed low roll off but it's hardly a dramatic or staggering change. Your experience may differ.
 

nrandall85

Member
Messages
2,258
Buffers are there to help your signal stay consistent, not to alter it. Yes there are bad buffers but again, in my experience using boss pedals, their buffers are not among them
Definitely not bad, but try a single Boss pedal in line vs. straight into the amp. There's certainly a perceptible change in the feel of the amp. Hook it up to a spectrum analyzer and look at what it does to your EQ. I don't think it's just cable capacitance either.

Live, I never worry about this stuff, but if I'm tracking clean parts sometimes I'm really critical of little stuff like that.

But it's like anything else, one person's "consistent signal" is another person's "too bright, too harsh, too immediate."
 

Leftyman

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
1,608
I was really set on either an old CE-2 or a CE-2W. After all of this I might just end up getting a true bypass chorus pedal instead. I have my fair share of Boss pedals and have always enjoyed the effects but have never really got along with the buffers. I have a looper where I can take the pedal in and out of the circuit and I could notice a change in tone and it wasn't for the better. At least to my ears. I've read some of the previous posts and naturally there are going to be some that don't buy into this. I can only speak to what I have heard with my own ears. I'm certainly not hearing this with my eyes.
 

blackba

Member
Messages
10,910
I was really set on either an old CE-2 or a CE-2W. After all of this I might just end up getting a true bypass chorus pedal instead. I have my fair share of Boss pedals and have always enjoyed the effects but have never really got along with the buffers. I have a looper where I can take the pedal in and out of the circuit and I could notice a change in tone and it wasn't for the better. At least to my ears. I've read some of the previous posts and naturally there are going to be some that don't buy into this. I can only speak to what I have heard with my own ears. I'm certainly not hearing this with my eyes.
I wish all Boss pedals had a switchable bypass like the new Waza tuner, where you can switch to the buffer or true bypass.

As much as a love the Boss RV6, I do hear a hint of high end roll off or dulling of the tone when its in the chain versus when its bypass by the TB looper.
 

cerebralpaul

Member
Messages
265
It is incredible how much people can hear with their eyes. Like all of the tone being "sucked" by their boss buffers.
Thats just silly.

There's technical data in Boss' own manuals that indicates differences in their buffers; there's data on this thread by some that have delved into the circuits even further that indicates significant differences between some Boss designs; and there's empirical data from multiple users on this thread, other threads on this site, as well as many other sites on the web that offer evidence of change of tone with various Boss effects.

I currently have 3 Boss effects on my board, when I say a dd-2 sounds different than a ge-7 in bypass that doesn't mean I have a conspiratorial agenda against the Boss company.
 

philrob1

Member
Messages
375
Shouldn't we also turn everything on and play some music too? Probably need at least an amp and a guitar also if you wanna test this, right?

I only wanna know because I'm about to click "buy it now" on a tube driver, a CS-2 and a true bypass looper (seller assured me it's disengaged) and I want to make sure I can really test this.

;) :p
Oh absolutely. It's easy to get caught up in these things and over analyse everything.

However, from my point of view, I DID, going back to 2008/2009 have the CS-2, Tube Driver, MXR Carbon Copy, CE-2 - all the pedals that were supposedly going to get my the Gilmour tones. Wasn't the case...! And it is BECAUSE of my understanding of the various buffers/impedances and the effect they all have on the tone to my tone improved, and when your tone is great, you're inspired more, so you play and practice more.

Least, that's what I found. YMMV
 

Leftyman

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
1,608
I've had boss pedals since the 80s. Much ado about nothing.
I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you about this. Myself and others believe otherwise, so I guess we will just agree to disagree. My guess is you have never had a Boss pedal in a true bypass looper and switched it in and out of your signal.
 

stinkfoot

Member
Messages
6,131
I think that some of the disagreements about this (not only in this thread - I've seen countless similar discussions over the years) stem from both sides tending to use fairly unspecified blanket-y statements. Too often, it's either "Boss pedals suck tone" or "Boss pedals do not suck tone", when the reality is far more complicated.

In general, the bypass path in a Boss pedal only has an input buffer, a transistor mute and output buffer. This goes for most of them, and these tend to be quite transparent (at least when we're talking about the pedals individually). However, some Boss pedals alter the tone quite noticeably (DM-2/3, DD-2/3, CE-2/3, PH-1r, BF-2 among others) due to additional circuitry being present in the dry signal path. So which particular pedal we're talking about will have a huge influence on whether it appears to steal tone or not. And yet, the discussion tends to be about Boss pedals in general, rather than specific ones :(

In addition to that, even with only those that don't affect the tone as much, when several are strung together they will also cause some loss. Each one will lose a little signal strength (JFET buffers can't reach 100% unity gain), and when you string them together, the losses will multiply. Jack Orman presented some interesting measurements here. This is not something everybody notices (or cares about), since it is constant and therefore something we simply compensate for with the amp's volume control (at the expense of a raised noise floor). Until we start messing about with true bypass loopers, of course. Then the loss is no longer consistent, and starts becoming noticeable. That happened to me with a DD-2 that I really liked - when I ran it in a TB loop strip, I never really got used to what it did to the dry signal...

Going back to the first post, the CE-2 is a fine chorus. But it is one of the Boss pedals that doesn't treat the dry signal very well, and true bypassing it will only help when you're not using it. As soon as you turn it on, the change happens. I don't know what (if any) changes were made in the CE-2w - to really solve this problem, they'd need to make some big changes (moving the split point - where the dry signal is taken from - to before the pre-emphasis stage, and add a new mixer stage/output buffer after the de-emphasis stage). As an alternative, I'd suggest the Mooer Ensemble King - it does most of what the CE-2 does, but with true bypass and a mix control :aok
 

songtalk

Member
Messages
3,487
How did musicians make music before true bypass???? Inconceivable!

There was no music before true bypass! Everyone knows that!

There was no good overdrive tone before tubescreamers and klons.

There were no good drummers before Bonham.

If you don't have a tube amp you are wasting your time playing music.

The best music of all time was made by a handful of British and American male Caucasian drug addicts in the late 20th century.

Learn the facts!

:rolleyes::p
 

cerebralpaul

Member
Messages
265
There was no music before true bypass! Everyone knows that!

There was no good overdrive tone before tubescreamers and klons.

There were no good drummers before Bonham.

If you don't have a tube amp you are wasting your time playing music.

The best music of all time was made by a handful of British and American male Caucasian drug addicts in the late 20th century.

Learn the facts!

:rolleyes::p
I don't know why I'm still surprised when people come on "The Gear Page" and say "why are y'all talking about gear, man?"
 

Leftyman

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
1,608
We are not saying guitarists didn't have good tone before TB and whatnot. The simple fact of the matter is that all of our favorite guitarists from yesterday simply didn't have access to the gear we now have because it didn't exist. If they did, I'm sure a fair amount of them would be using it. I see a lot of legendary guitarists who are getting up there in age using a lot of boutique pedals that are TB or most likely have superior buffers to what was used back in the day.

This thread is certainly not saying that you should use TB pedals or your tone will suck. Most people would not even notice in a live environment. Sometimes it's not about what you hear but how the guitar feels.

So, enough with the stupid comments about how did we make music before TB. You obviously have nothing constructive to say so why even bother posting anything in this nonsense thread? It amazes me how much time and effort some members will take out of their day to post in threads that has absolutely no value whatsoever. Aren't we all on TGP for the same reason. We love guitar and we love talking about all things guitar? With that being said, if you come across a thread like this that you don't agree with, think is stupid or whatever the case may be, move on. Don't waste your time and everyone's time by posting what does not contribute to the thread and/or make everyone more aware/educated.

We can all get great tone from a wide variety of gear however, if you could spend the same amount of money and purchase gear that you knew was going to sound or feel better to you, wouldn't you do so? That's what we are really discussing here. I think both the Boss CE-2 and CE-2W are great chorus pedals and they are both going to cost about the same. If 1 of them has a superior buffer circuit, all other things being equal, wouldn't you buy that one?
 
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