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"box" - (semantics)

vhollund

Member
Messages
3,519
I've come across it for the first time here after 25 years of playing. 2 times in different threads.
Is it a new word for "clichè" or "lick" and where did it originate...here ?

Also, diminished is not diminished is not diminished....
The 2 in minor is a half diminished
 

Staggerlee

Member
Messages
1,625
I've come across it for the first time here after 25 years of playing. 2 times in different threads.
Is it a new word for "clichè" or "lick" and where did it originate...here ?

Also, diminished is not diminished is not diminished....
The 2 in minor is a half diminished
Box is another word for a scale pattern that spans about 3-4 frets, i.e. it can be played without moving your hand up and down the fret board, only vertically.

I don't know about the second one. But the second intervals are called minor second and major second.
 

JonR

Member
Messages
14,844
Also, diminished is not diminished is not diminished....
The 2 in minor is a half diminished
The 2 in minor (and the 7 in major) is a diminished triad. To call that a "diminished chord" is quite correct, strictly speaking.

But I agree one shouldn't loosely use the term "diminished" to describe that chord, because that word is commonly used as a shorthand to mean "diminished 7th" - which is the vii chord in minor.

If we're talking 7th chords - as jazz players habitually do - then yes the ii chord in minor should be called what it is, half-diminished.
And IMO we should always use the term "diminished 7th" for the other kind, to avoid confusion. When people just talk about a "diminished chord", we have to know the context to know what type they mean (triad, half-dim or dim7?).
 

stevel

Member
Messages
14,545
Also, diminished is not diminished is not diminished....
The 2 in minor is a half diminished
Get your jazz head out of your jazz arse! :beer

In regular people music ;) not all chords are 7th chords. Believe it or not, sometimes a - gasp - triad, is just enough (and sometimes, even a dyad is enough!!!).

And don't let those jazzers hear you calling it a half-diminished seventh either - you know darn good and well its a "minor seven flat five"!!!!!!!:rotflmao

And yes, "box" just means a single pattern within a couple of fret's span - like what a "chord diagram" box would cover. So when people say "I need to get out of the pentatonic box", they don't mean "thinking outside of the box", but instead they mean being able to play notes outside of the 3 fret span (frets 5 to 8 for example) of the A minor pentatonic.

Sometimes they might mean "box" in terms of "outside the box" meaning, not cliche, etc. but the context of the conversation should tell you that.

Best,
Steve
 

stevel

Member
Messages
14,545
But I agree one shouldn't loosely use the term "diminished" to describe that chord, because that word is commonly in jazz circles used as a shorthand to mean "diminished 7th" - which is the vii chord in minor.
fixed it for you ;-)

Steve
 

vhollund

Member
Messages
3,519
Thanks for the clarification on "Box"
(Strange that I've never come across it before in that meaning.)

Yes, JonR. Quite right
That's why the symbol for half-diminished is a little barred dim "o"

Offen people use "dim" for the 2nd degree of minor when harmonising the major scale.
Not a disaster /confusion that can't be helped later but my "early brainwashing" causes me to stop on it :)
 

flavaham

Member
Messages
1,866
Thanks for the clarification on "Box"
(Strange that I've never come across it before in that meaning.)

Yes, JonR. Quite right
That's why the symbol for half-diminished is a little barred dim "o"

Offen people use "dim" for the 2nd degree of minor when harmonising the major scale.
Not a disaster /confusion that can't be helped later but my "early brainwashing" causes me to stop on it :)
When I first learned to harmonize the major/minor scales it was done first with triads. In that case it is a diminished triad. When you get into 7ths, I say Xm7b5. Do you really called it half diminished? If you are reading a chart or telling someone in the band what chord you are playing, do you really say "half diminished?" In that case, do you qualify "fully diminished" as well?
 

Gigbag

Member
Messages
2,341
I've come across it for the first time here after 25 years of playing. 2 times in different threads.
Is it a new word for "clichè" or "lick" and where did it originate...here ?
I first heard/saw the term "box" used in a book 33 years ago. If you look at a neck diagram with dots for the notes of a scale (such as the A minor pentatonic scale at the fifth fret), and draw an outline (box) around it, I beleive that is where the term comes from. If you break the pentatonic scale into positions or boxes, it can be visualized for teaching purposes.

There is also the "BB King box", and a few other famous ones.
 

Motterpaul

Tone is in the Ears
Messages
12,505
"Box" specifically refers to favorites groups of notes used by well-known players, and I first heard it many years ago. I just posted some of the more well-known "boxes" - they are almost always affiliated with blues players:

Albert King
BB King
Eric Clapton

Here's a Jimmy Page reference by Guitar World Magazine:
http://www.guitarworld.com/shred-zeppelin-how-play-jimmy-page

Jimmy relies heavily on the minor pentatonic "box" pattern illustrated in FIGURE 1 for many of his licks, using mostly the top three or four strings. When he does go down to the bottom string, he'll shift positions with his middle or ring finger on the 5th string, as indicated here.

 

JonR

Member
Messages
14,844
When I first learned to harmonize the major/minor scales it was done first with triads. In that case it is a diminished triad. When you get into 7ths, I say Xm7b5. Do you really called it half diminished? If you are reading a chart or telling someone in the band what chord you are playing, do you really say "half diminished?" In that case, do you qualify "fully diminished" as well?
Personally I would say either "half-diminished" or "minor 7 flat 5" on the one hand, and "diminished 7th" on the other.
I wouldn't normally use the term "fully diminished", unless maybe people were still giving me blank looks... (and then they only have themselves to blame if I launch into a theory lecture :).)
 

vhollund

Member
Messages
3,519
Haha :D

When I first learned to harmonize the major/minor scales it was done first with triads. In that case it is a diminished triad. When you get into 7ths, I say Xm7b5. Do you really called it half diminished? If you are reading a chart or telling someone in the band what chord you are playing, do you really say "half diminished?" In that case, do you qualify "fully diminished" as well?
I say minor 7 b5 to avoid all possible confusion.
And use "diminished" only for...diminished.

This way people know what type of chord and how to treat it.

@cruise
I know that as patterns
 

flavaham

Member
Messages
1,866
I might say that this is the first time I've heard of a guitar player who didn't know the term "box" as it relates to shapes/patterns on the neck. ;)

For me, I use m7b5 over the term half diminished. However, just saying diminished often leads to people asking questions because you could just be referring to a diatonic triad at which point the 7th chord is still m7b5.

ah...who cares? Now that we've cleared up what boxes are we could probably wrap all this up and stuff it in a box of its own. At the end of the day I think we all know how to get our point across musically. We might just call it something different.

"We always did feel the same we just saw it from a different point of view..."
-Dylan
 

vhollund

Member
Messages
3,519
I might say that this is the first time I've heard of a guitar player who didn't know the term "box" as it relates to shapes/patterns on the neck.
Yeah well...
I am clearly under educated then ;)
 

monty

Member
Messages
21,651
I dont know about the rest of that stuff, but I've heard blues box since I was a kid (a long time ago,lol).
 




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