Buffer/Fuzz question

Discussion in 'Effects, Pedals, Strings & Things' started by Tonemeister69, Sep 22, 2006.

  1. Tonemeister69

    Tonemeister69 Member

    Messages:
    2,728
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Hi all,

    Here's my question:

    Would you recommed a Morning Dew EQ as a good buffer after my Analogman Sunface or would you put it before?

    I have had trouble with buffers both before and after fuzz pedals and its a little frustrating to say the least....

    If you use a Fuzz pedal or two as well as a buffer your chiming-in here would be much appreciated!

    Thanks
     
  2. TheGigPig

    TheGigPig Member

    Messages:
    595
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    What's the rest of your pedal line up?
     
  3. BJF

    BJF Member

    Messages:
    981
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Location:
    Stockholm
    Hi

    I can't comment on the MDEQ, while I think I will have to get one of those soon.
    However, generally, if you place anything ahead of your Sun Face, you will miss how the low inputimpedance interacts with your pick ups and controls on guitar. You can hinder the Sun Face from going haywire by adjusting the internal trimmer at input and that makes it less sensitive to what's before it.
    On the output side, the Sun Face has a rather high output impedance, through its volumepot. If you notice that the tone gets significantly brighter if Volume is on full as opposed to '8' or'9' then the output impedance reacts with the capacitance in the cables that come after the SF.
    If this is the base of your favourite tone putting a buffer right after the SF will alter tone for the brighter. You can if you have the tools measure the total capacitance of cables that come after the fuzz and mimic that with a cap that would be connected from output of fuzz to ground and you can then run a buffer - don't attempt this unless you know what you are doing.

    Just a thought
    BJ
     
  4. Tonemeister69

    Tonemeister69 Member

    Messages:
    2,728
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I'm not sure yet. I just got a Pedaltrain2 board and I'm thinking I'll use the following:

    Guitars into Lehle Dual

    Signal A goes to my pedalboard:

    Sunface
    Morning Dew EQ/Buffer
    Timmy
    Tube Zone

    ...into Low imput of my amp

    Signal B goes to the high-gain imput of my amp for lead tone without pre-amp effects

    The effects loop of the amp will contain the following:

    Strobostomp
    Possibly a chorus or vibe
    DD-20/DL-4/Replica - Some form of delay and/or reverb


    Basically, I'm running 2 signals. Signal A is coloured by what is on the pedalboard and runns into a clean amp and signal B goes straight from my guitar into the amp's hi gain imput.

    The amp is a Bad Cat 100 watt custom head.

    Does that make any sense?

    Tim
     
  5. TheGigPig

    TheGigPig Member

    Messages:
    595
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Yeh, perfect. I Think BJF got things SPOT ON! Great FUZZ tone is all about the input impedance to the pedal. It wants to see the coil from your guitar. I would say even with the internal trimmer pot (which is a great idea btw) you would still be happier making sure that there is no buffer into the fuzz and that it's seeing the pu's.
    To simply back up what BJF has said, there are vintage style OD/Fuzz pedals where the output impedance is much higher than one would think. This high impedance means that the output tone from the pedal will be affected by things such as cable length and and buffers in the chain. It's not a fault, just a part of the design. The Lovepedal ETERNITY does the same thing, and it's just the greatest OD ever IMHO.
    As far as the MORNING DEW is concerned you could set it up so that the E.Q. of the MD mimics the tone of the high capacitance of the SunFace. All this means is that you place it after the sun face and set it up so that it doesn't add and top end to the original output tone of the sun face. It will still be a buffered signal, but it won't be transparent.
    The obvious problem with this is when the Sun Face isn't on, the e.q. will rob top end from your tone...what's the answer...stick the sun face and eq in a seperate loop perhaps? Or forget the eq and just make sure you use the shortest, highest quality cable pos to go from the pedals to the input of your amp. You'll need to try out some combinations and see what is going to work best.

    Good luck and keep us posted on your results.
     
  6. Tonemeister69

    Tonemeister69 Member

    Messages:
    2,728
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Wow man, thanks for the reply!

    Yeah, I think I'm just going to foget the EQ/Buffer thing.. I'm not convinced my tone will be that much worse without a buffer.
    I've come closer to a solution with the following chain:

    Sunface
    Strobostomp
    Tone Press
    Timmy
    TubeZone
    Clone Chorus
    Echotap or Replica (not sure yet)

    What do you think?

    Thanks again,

    Tim
     
  7. Tonemeister69

    Tonemeister69 Member

    Messages:
    2,728
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Also,

    Will putting the Lehle AB box in front of the pedalboard change the imput impedance drastically?

    Signal A would go to the pedalboard and then the amp and signal B would go straight to the amp...

    Yeah or no?
     
  8. TheGigPig

    TheGigPig Member

    Messages:
    595
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    There are a couple of Lehle box's. One of the box's has an isolated transformer out to get rid of earth loops, but this needs to be driven by some sort of pre-amp section, so what ever output is isolated is also going to be buffered, but the normal out will be fine to go into the pedals. Send the isloated out straight to your amp.
    Your pedal chain looks great. Some very nice stompers in there. I wouldn't completely give up on the idea of a buffer in there somewhere, Maybe before the chorus...but if the chorus and delay are in the effects loop of your amp, then there's no need.
    The key to getting this stuff right is experimentaion, but as part of that experimentation it is IMPERITAVE that you can A/B the tones. Don't try and remember what they sounded like. Set them up back to back and meticulously anylize the tone then compare. If you do this your ears will tell you the truth and you're much less likely to make an emotional based decision. If you try to remember the tone, your ears are easily fooled.
     
  9. nashvillesteve

    nashvillesteve Member

    Messages:
    3,985
    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    You could get a unit like this:
    [​IMG]
    Click on pic for link...
    You put the SunFace in one loop and the Morning Dew EQ in the other. Turn one loop on and the other off, every time you step on the "invert" switch, the loops flip on/off. So, you can have your funface in the chain without the MDEQ's buffer and then step on the invert switch and all of a sudden the MDEQ is in the chain without having to compensate for the fuzz's change in EQ...
     
  10. Tonemeister69

    Tonemeister69 Member

    Messages:
    2,728
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2006
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    ^ Good idea. Thanks for that :)

    I think I'll just stick to nowt using the EQ for now.
    I don't think I want to bother with loopers and all that. I need something simple that will get the job done.

    Tim
     
  11. BJF

    BJF Member

    Messages:
    981
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Location:
    Stockholm
    Hi,

    Pleased to meet you gigpig, and thanks

    Tonemeister:

    Well, while I'd sometimes use a buffered pedal ahead of my Mc Fuzz, which is in the ballpark but different just the same, and it happens to be the only fuzz I have that is sensitive to what it is feed with, I'd do that to make the Mc Fuzz into more of a distortion device.

    Results may be quite different on a Sun Face or fuzz faces in general, but still you'd get more of a distortion feel than fuzz feel.

    I have some customers that use the Sun Face and they have asked about this and noted the eq change of setting of the volumecontrol and those that I know that use this type of fuzz generally prefer to have that in conjuction with amplifier distorting somewhat
    I mention this as it is a good excersize to get to know the settings of a fuzz- it's like setting the fuzzcontrol on 9 2/3 on a fuzz face to swap out excess noise.
    If you find the magic in the reaction of the output of your Sun Face in conjunction with certain cables then you can synthesize this with a capacitor at your magic spot- and really there is no magic just functions.
    Now the MDEQ may perform excellently after a fuzz, though this I can not say yet as I have no MDEQ. In your system the MDEQ could be the missing link of tonecontrol depending on what your amp can give and as a buffer after the fuzz it would keep things stable once you have set your fuzz to behaviour in want.

    Just some thoughts
    BJ
     
  12. TheGigPig

    TheGigPig Member

    Messages:
    595
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Likewise and you're very welcome.

    I do find that germanium transistor fuzz's based even loosely around the original FF circuit in general suffer this problem. It has to do with the way the transistors are biased and become very sensitive to input changes, which is why when you turn down the volume on your guitar even the slightest amount, it has a huge impact on the tone. It's part of the magic of these stompers, our goal is to find ways to make all these quirks work together, it's a big part of the fun, and when you get it right, tone is the reward!
     
  13. BJF

    BJF Member

    Messages:
    981
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Location:
    Stockholm
    Hi,

    You're most welcome and likewise.
    Yes well the reason fuzz faces behave this way is that they are current input, with no current feedback, and so the inputimpedance of the transistor is entirely a function of the parameter hie which for germanium transitors is in the vincinity 1K Ohm's and for silicon usually about 5 to 8K Ohms.

    The Fuzz Face circuit has gain equal to hfe of the first transitor, times hfe of the second transistor, if source impedance is close to zero Ohms.

    A typical guitar pick up has a DC resistans of about 6 to12K Ohms and then an impedance well up to a couple of 100K Ohms and since a pcik up is made of an inductance, a coil, it forms a lowpass filter when loaded and in fact becomes a lowpassfilter with a resonance without load due to internal losses. This resonant peak is loaded down to non existant even at 10K Ohms.
    Germanium transistors are often more sensitive, this is certainly so,but it also depends on the circuit and one can draw benefits from hybrid constructions like for instance the Mc Fuzz.
    A fuzz face has no thermal compensation but is really all about getting maximum gain outof fewest parts, this of course makes the circuit sensitive for many things, but also create quirks that can be well so rewarding and the dying moans hehehe

    Yes why certainly the high output impedance complex function of a guitar makes an interesting combination with loads like this.
    Actually this low load would effect the taper of the volumepot aswell and make that more abrupt, while then the resistans of the pot isolates the pick up and resores thereby some treble and certainly the tone is the reward it always is, isn't it?

    Have fun
    BJ
     
  14. TheGigPig

    TheGigPig Member

    Messages:
    595
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Ah yes, well said...Oscillscopes at 10 paces then??
    That is my favourite post yet...thanks BJ
    All the best
     
  15. BrianB

    BrianB Member

    Messages:
    348
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2004
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Lots of great info from Bjorn here...

    What I might have said: After a FF type pedal the Dew's buffer makes the FF just a little brighter :eek:
     
  16. Jacobpaul81

    Jacobpaul81 Member

    Messages:
    6,748
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    +1 I had the MDEQ for a while, and placed it right after my Vox tonebender clone, and i didn't think it did a whole lot with it off. Might have added a touch of clarity to the vox clone. Now, with it on, woah man, that was sick. The nice mid punch I could add to the fuzz was amazing. I sold it, somewhat regretably, but It just wasn't getting enough use on my board.
     
  17. BJF

    BJF Member

    Messages:
    981
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Location:
    Stockholm
    Hi

    Oh, just glad to be of assistance and thanks.

    With the piece of the puzzle that the MDEQ would make the Sun Face a tad brighter, and ofcourse even if the MDEQ would be set to compensate for this it would rob some highend from dry signal, there would be an option of connecting say a capacitor of 1000pF from the effect output on switch to grond inside the Sun Face which would approximate an orange spiral cable ;)
    Exact value would be dependant on preference, while this would be about a good place to start.
    This connection would give the Sun Face optimum load but not affect dry tone

    Modifications to any pedal should be done with the outmost care and only when you know what you are doing.

    If possible Tonemeister, measure your cables under the condition of your ideal tone and then you have an answer that may mean a simple solution to easier life with fuzz.

    I hear good things about the MDEQ and would be curious.

    Thanks and have fun
    BJ
     
  18. nashvillesteve

    nashvillesteve Member

    Messages:
    3,985
    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2005
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    I think in another thread I had an idea of a loop box that had vol/tone controls to put your fuzz in.... So you leave the fuzz on all the time, roll off the tone and volume controls according to your taste and then use the loop box to add/remove the fuzz with input adjustments to/from your signal path.
     
  19. BJF

    BJF Member

    Messages:
    981
    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2003
    Location:
    Stockholm
    Hi,

    Well one thing many would like is a bit more mids from a fuzz face and this is why the Tonebender fairs a tad better from having a little less bass.
    Reason for want of more mids is that sound is fine by itself but may have a slight tendency of getting lost in live mix. A mid boost EQ following this type of fuzz would be delicious ;)

    Just a thought
    BJ
     

Share This Page