CAGE system (Learning the fretboard)

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by iDavid, Jan 14, 2006.


  1. iDavid

    iDavid Member

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    I'm looking into "other" ways to learn the fretboard. I'm using Fretboard road-maps (DVD and book) and like it pretty well. I tried Fretboard logic and the CAGE systemand it looked interested, but I couldn't get my head around it...

    I see a Homespun as Video Guitar soloing 101 which goes into the CAGE system. I also have seen some stuff on the net about it...

    A few questions
    1. Does CAGE only apply to major scales (chords)?
    2. Anyone tied the Guitar soloing 101 video?
    3. Do you think I should just stick to Fretboard road maps?


     
  2. Frank B

    Frank B Supporting Member

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    I'm not familiar w/ the g101 system but have used FL to teach many students. Often the difficulty with CAGED is making the 'connections' more difficult than they really are- sometimes it helped to just concentrate on the octave shapes embedded in each of the 5 cowboy (open position) chord forms
    ie: "C" octave shape is based on the 3rd fret A string and 1st fret B string. Get used to moving that shaped around until you are comfortable and aware that 'that shape' on the 5 fret A string/3 fret B string is still a "C" shape but is a D (note name) octave.

    It's easy to see moving around but a little tricky to describe on paper/internet w/o the visual aids but if you do that for each of the shapes, stick to octaves you should be able to see how the octaves link together and use the octaves as a launching pad for chords, arpeggios and scales.

    Good luck.
     
  3. Kappy

    Kappy Member

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    1. As Frank B notes, it's CAGED, 5 patterns, not 4. It applies to just about any scale (including pentatonics), except for symmetrical scales and the chromatic scale.
    2. No, don't know that video
    3. I don't know how that one works, can you explain the approach?

    Do what works best for how you think and approach the guitar. The CAGED made a lot of sense to me b/c it was pretty easy to see where one of those chords was anywhere on the fingerboard in any key. So to be able to quickly build a scale around that chord (wherever I was) seemed like the right way to go. It might not be the approach for some people, though. I know Jimmy Bruno has his own 6 pattern approach, and some people play 7 3-note-per-string patterns for most of their 7 note scales.

    Also, you can learn one approach now and later abandon it for another. It's not like learning CAGED, or one of the other ones you mentioned, is going to hurt you. Learning anything is good. Learning what you can use best is better.

    Good luck!
     
  4. Tom Gross

    Tom Gross Supporting Member

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    Great, great point.


    AS to CAGED:
    I learned CAGED and it really helped me. After you get the patterns down, some things to do (with a metronome and/or over some chords) may be:

    1. Connect them - play two adjacent of the patterns (e.g. G & E), to help blend them together.
    2. Find all the chords and triads in each shape.
    3. Turn each one into another scale (lower the 3rd for melodic minor, raise the 4th for lydian, etc.)
    4. Define a series of major scales (say C Major, G major, D major) to play in a pattern, then play them (perhaps to a chord progression) in the same general fretboard position by changing scale forms. This helps us not think horizontilly or be locked in the box.


    I also dug some 3-note per string patterns as well.
     
  5. decay-o-caster

    decay-o-caster Member

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    CAGED or a variant thereof is what really opened up the fretboard to me after decades of pentatonic wanking. It works for major, minor and seventh forms - if you know, say, a Dmin shape, and move it up 2 frets, you're going to be playing an Emin.

    But most useful when learning about the CAGED approach for me was making sure I knew which was the I, iii, V, or vii of the chord. So if I'm playing Gmin shapes, I might not be thinking "Bb" for the minor third, but at least I know the note I'm playing is the minor third, and to go major, just raise it a half step.

    For playing rhythm licks, CAGED can't be beat - you can move all over the neck playing little chord chunks, makes rhythm playing tons more interesting.

    Don't know the other approaches you're talking about.
     
  6. WhosYourPal

    WhosYourPal Member

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    David, check out Kirk Lorange's Planetalk method. IMO, he has an interesting way of looking at the fretboard that is easy to understand.
     
  7. CAFeathers

    CAFeathers Member

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    Fretboard Logic is excellent and works with the CAGED system. There are 3 parts to it and a DVD/Video.
     
  8. russ6100

    russ6100 Member

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    decay-o-caster wrote:
    I agree totally with that statement.
    The ear begins to make associations with intervals based off the root - it becomes a more "honest" way of playing, if that makes any sense. It really creates a situation where you really know what a note is going to sound like before you grab it.

    I sort of developed my own take on the CAGED system after many years of mostly a scale based approach and it really helped free things up. Now, I'm viewing the fretboard from both perspectives simultaneously, which is the best of both worlds.

    Russ
    http://www.russletson.com
     
  9. Tomo

    Tomo Member

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    Dave, Tom

    Great points.

    I like the CAGED system with triads/scales.
    even blues phrases. Simple connection.

    Then I used to practice 3 notes per strings...
    with many sequencings.

    I have been teaching so many people from all over the world.
    People tends to prefer one system and follow too much
    shapes. It's ok when you learn them for the first time.
    but gradually you have do something... You can't look at
    fretboard to do good soloing? (Another great topic).

    So I use many possibilities as long as I don't have to use my brain
    to much. I also like to use "One string' or "2 strings" side by side
    approach.

    I have tried many possible ways... now I try to forget everything.
    Pretty much by ears... (another approach). I try to avoid to look
    at my left fingers. I don't want to know where I am.

    Please do try all choices and examine them. hopefully each
    person will understand something new...

    Tomo
     
  10. iDavid

    iDavid Member

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    Hey Guys,

    CAGED is really making sense to me now. It is a pretty simple concept that seemed pretty complicated.. until now that is...

    I was using D-A-F Roadmap from Fretboard roadmaps.
    http://www.fenderplayersclub.com/pdfs/lessons/d_a_f_roadmap.pdf

    I can't quite get how the two relate to each other, I seem to just about get it and then poof... gone :cool: If anyone wants to shed some more light on the subject, I'm listening

    I think D-A-F deals more with finding chords on the first four strings... Later in the book it deals with some scales but not to the extent of CAGED

    I appreciate Tomo's response and plan to start on interval ear training in the weeks to come.

    I love guitar and learning just never stops... dig it!
     
  11. iDavid

    iDavid Member

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    Are you Tomo Fujita?

    If so, I LOVE your DVD. I have to finish up a few more lessons on some other DVDs then I'm focusing on yours. You have a hell of a groove. My daughter has just turned two and I was playing the DVD, she got up and started dancing crazy. She knows good music, btw (she has also starting playing bongos... really)

    Small suggestion. These little booklets make me nuts. It would be cool if we could purcase a large one to go with it... just a thought

    oh, if our not Tomo Fujita, thanks for the advice anyway :BEER
     
  12. Tomo

    Tomo Member

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    Yes, I am Tomo Fujita.

    Thank you so much for using my AYGP dvd. Say thanks to your
    daughter! I am happy to hear that i move somebody.

    Great suggestion about booklet. Unfortunately...
    this dvd was originally produced in Japan and it was
    video format. So when I got offer from Hal Leonard,
    I suggested to make this booklet bigger.. but we had
    size issue.. because this AYGP was video format, if
    we made bigger size booklet... won't fit the video shelf.

    Plus everything is smaller in Japan. Even this AYGP book
    version (w/cd and 3 more sections) is not big as book in
    U,S. Because people read books while riding trains in Japan.

    PS, My AYGP DVD2 will be released in U.S. very soon.
    This will discuss all possible fingerings ideas(ideal, useful fingerings
    you will see...) and organized as simpler concept. I don't like complicated
    approach. So that you can apply to your own playing,
    not just need to follow the method.


    Tomo
     
  13. Frank B

    Frank B Supporting Member

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    Looking forward to Aygp II !!!
     
  14. justicetones

    justicetones Member

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    Mee too. I have enjoyed breaking out of my comfort zones with AYGP.

    Thanks Tomo:BEER
     
  15. daddyo

    daddyo Guest

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    I am using a book called Beginning Jazz Guitar by Jody Fisher. I'm learning basic triads - major, minor, dim, aug. You learn them for each inversion based on string sets - 1st string set is 6,5,4; 2nd is 5,4,3; etc. It seems to be working for me. I worry about learning patterns. I have already learned a lot of movable chords and scale patterns and know my fingerboard well but I want to learn the theory behind harmony, not memorize patterns. Then hopefully I can play without thinking. Maybe a futile task.
     
  16. 1-Take-Wonder

    1-Take-Wonder Member

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    and get to this quickly...dont spend too much time drilling the 8/16 note scale because as Tomo and others suggested, eventually you want to forget the scale.

    For me, this was where these patterns changed from scales into music. So once you get the pattern down somewhat, start adding others and blend the two, restrict to three strings, two strings etc, start adding ever wider string skipping, octaves, etc to bring some drama into the runs, again this is where I started to hear melodic ideas rather than scale or apreggio progressions in the runs.
     
  17. Tomo

    Tomo Member

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    It's ok to learn as shape for the first time.
    Hey , my open D chord is triangle right?

    but next step is very important

    1) Hear the degrees/colors
    5 Rt 3 ? or 3rd 5 Rt? What note is on top?

    2) Make more mistakes while you practice
    without looking at your fretboard!
    Don't visualize too much.

    3) Apply these ideas into song, not just
    keep practicing! You just get the result
    of the method?

    No rules. There are too much information
    about playing. Too much! All depends how you
    apply it.

    Capisi ?

    Tomo
     
  18. free_jazz

    free_jazz Member

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    hearing intervals like a horn player?
     
  19. flatfinger

    flatfinger Member

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    " I try to avoid to look
    at my left fingers. I don't want to know where I am.
    "


    YES , The left brain gets way into visual shapes; which hinders musicality!!

    You Da Man , Tomo!
     

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