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can ANYONE forgive me for the Steve Howe thread?

Discussion in 'The Sound Hound Lounge' started by lespaulreedsmith, May 19, 2011.

  1. lespaulreedsmith

    lespaulreedsmith Member

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    I feel I owe you guys an explanation sooo...
    My apologies to anyone I offended here on TGP as I have been a long time member and premier member of the old PRS Forum and gravitated over here back in '03 or '04 under another user name and I believe TGP is THE best forum on the 'net. I really do. It is my 'morning coffee' so to speak and I would never want to alienate, denigrate, or intentionally 'hack someone off' with my opinions or postings as that's just not who I am. I do respect TGP member's musical accomplishments and your opinions (or at least your right to say it...;)).
    I never responded back to the thread because by the time I looked at it the next day it had gotten kinda (how can I say it?) 'rabid' at times.:omg Sorry, there I go using a poor choice of adjectives again... (yeah, I'm trying to be funny, 'trying' being the key word:console)

    I will say that I used words in that post that as I looked back I asked myself "why did I say and use those adjectives?" and my only excuse is that it was late, I'd had a glass of Merlot, and I was watching the clip (I'm going to show in the link at the end of this post) and I guess I just reacted and used those words because of the performance I was watching. Yes, some of you will say "so it was the liquor talking" but in my defense I have gone back to what I watched that night and I 'still' say it wasn't Steve's most shining onstage moment (but then again I have them also, who doesn't?).
    To preface this post a tad I will tell you I have played music fulltime for a living for the last 15 years and have been playing seriously since 1981 (yeah, I'm old) and make over $50k a year by doing music. 'So what' you say? Exactly. I just say this so you will know that I have been doing it awhile and I do have people appreciate what I do and these people appreciate my opinion (haha, usually...:worried). I don't feel a need to post a 'what I've done' clip collection at this time so yeah, I 'could' just be another faceless, fat poser behind a computer screen (but then again, couldn't most of us be?;)).
    I'm not going to try and 'smooth things over' by schmoozing anyone I offended (again, I'll just apologize for a sloppy thread, lack of explanation, and being trigger happy and firing off a post that was not well thought out) but if you'd let me, I'd like to try and explain my (now infamous) Steve Howe thread if that's ok?

    Ok, I, myself pulled the Steve Howe thread because as I got to re-reading my initial post I actually did kinda start to see how it could be taken as inflammatory and also could be taken as a drive-by, out of the blue bashing of Steve (as someone said) but it was not intended to be (even though some of you thought so).
    I know some of you will probably say "yeah, whatever... you hate Steve and you already said it. You suck." but I promise I didn't mean to bash or take anything away (as if I could!) from Steve Howe's career or achievements.
    For the record, I own Yes concert DVD's and Asia DVD's and some of Steve's old video lessons and have listened to Steve and Yes literally for decades.
    He IS a huge talent and multi-instrumentilist and composer. (and I'm not just saying that now and trying to schmooze after the 'doomed thread' fact and after the roasting I recieved and partially deserved:crazyguy)
    I, myself also play 8-10 different instruments and I know all about (what someone in the old thread posted about Steve) being a 'jack of all trades - master of none' kinda guy. But I also believe Steve 'has' mastered some of those trades.
    His styles of finger-picking, lap steel, classical, slide, acoustic (I mean c'mon, do I have my own Martin acoustic model? duh... NO :() and other instruments he plays are original, complicated (although you don't have to believe me but I can play some Yes songs) and are prog rock at it's finest.

    One thing I'd like you members to know is that I'm not a basher at heart and sorry to be taken as that. I did not word my post carefully and succinctly and just kinda hit the enter button while I continued to watch the Yes DVD I was watching.
    Another thing I did not do in that thread was back up what I was saying by posting a link or example of what kinda bothered me as I was watching and listening to it in the first place. I will do that with a YouTube link at the end of the post.

    A moment to respond to some of the responses? I am not a troll (but I have played one on tv and visited one in Las Vegas:huh;)) as I didn't mean to hit the emotional trigger spot some of you experienced. Also to validate your responses to the thread I have to admit, you didn't take that initial post 100% wrong as it was written. I just didn't write it very well nor state my case at all and I had not posted in the Lounge for quite awhile so yeah, it seemed like a drive by. My only excuse is that at the time I felt as I was throwing out a random thought and the Sound Hound seemed like the place to do it. My bad. Sorry.

    I also KNOW that online video and audio and DVD video and audio is subjective and can be misleading and I admit, that is the medium I was using and observing when I made my observation. In the 'doomed' thread (yeah, I have to admit it was doomed) I stated it was his 'live tone' and phrasing that kinda bothered me (and then I used those stupid adjectives... sorry) but I was referring to his tone and phrasing at the time I was watching the link I've posted here.

    I have tried to analyze why it bothered me and I believe partly, I just had experienced some higher caliber playing from Steve in other recordings and DVD's and songs and I was kinda 'let down' as a 'listener'.

    To end an already too long ending to this thread I have determined the following (and really knew these things already and have known them for years).
    #1 - Steve is 64 years old and still playing as far as I know. Pretty cool but can anyone play as well at age 64 as they did at 24? 34? 44? I don't know but the concert I was watching was the 35th anniversary concert. So I think Steve would have been 57 yrs. old which is 9 years older than I am now. (yeah 35 year anniversary concert... I feel kinda ashamed a tad as that's an accomplishment in itself let alone be playing tours at 57 years of age... my bad again)
    #2 - Steve is using Line 6 gear and it seemed that slight lack of 'tone' was a tad off putting and well, kinda 'noticeable' on parts and the sound of the Strat through the Twins just kinda didn't fit... I don't know. Yu might say it was a genius solo but it left me kinda going 'what the?'
    #3 - You guys did post some YouTube stuff that I had not seen and really made me rethink and back up a little bit on the whole 'tone' issue (but to be honest the clips were mostly 70's and his tone seemed 'better' for some reason...
    #4 - And this seems the most troubling point to me AND it has to do with me... I seem to have grown reverse jaded (if that's actually a phrase) that I judge even classic and older stuff by what has been done in the last 20 yrs or so... It seems I have been so immersed in the latest and greatest I have forgotton my roots so to speak. It seems that 'good tone' (whatever that means to me) is everywhere you look these days and good players are more plentiful THANKS TO people like Steve Howe... My problem was I judged what I was seeing and hearing Steve do and play based on the standard of excellence today and not letting Steve Howe stand on his own merits (which I admit are extensive).

    Well, that's it guys. Here's the link as to what I saw that just kinda pushed me over the edge so to speak and take it for what it's worth. I know some of you will like it and some of you might agree w/ me. I actually did fear for the lives of those who agreed w/ me in that thread.... KIDDING:p

    And to bounce off another thread... this is all said w/ due respect, no offense, let me be honest w/ you, and bless your hearts...:JAM:hiP:noevil:roll

    Here's the link... flame suit seared to my flesh...:omg
    Post whatever you'd like in response here even if it's 'well, just don't let it happen again...' or if it's about what I've said here or about the clip of Steve. I'm pretty thick skinned.
    As I told one of the guys who pm'd me about the thread, the only things sacred to me are my family, friends and maybe my moral beliefs... Everything else is free game and open to change...

    Oh, and here's a link to the other 'doomed thread'... yeah, I should have worded things differently... sorry again.
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...w-H9Cw&usg=AFQjCNESxA89_wCnngsW0fcCq_nFWOk9gA

     
  2. sosomething

    sosomething Supporting Member

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    In da NAP liss!
  3. lespaulreedsmith

    lespaulreedsmith Member

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    ? - Sorry, don't get it... Too Late? Drop dead? :huh;)
     
  4. stevieboy

    stevieboy Clouds yell at me Silver Supporting Member

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    I forgive you.

    But then, I never opened that thread.
     
  5. Ampegasaur

    Ampegasaur Member

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    PERMABAN!!!! J/K. People have their opinions, it happens. Listen to what you like. I listen to Death Metal, not to popular around these parts, but hey not everyone likes the same thing. That said Steve Howe is a monster player. Love some old schoiol Yes.
     
  6. tapeworm

    tapeworm Supporting Member

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    not about to read all that. seriously, if you are that concerned about what a bunch of online personalities think about something you posted, then it is time to log off and take a walk outside.
     
  7. rhinocaster

    rhinocaster Supporting Member

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    Hey, I never really paid attention to Steve Howe until your thread. It made me dig up some clips that evening and I was blown away!

    So, I got something out of it.

    You did step fully into the punch, I'll give you that. :D
     
  8. Ogre

    Ogre Member

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    It takes a good man to own up to his actions. You get my vote.
     
  9. lespaulreedsmith

    lespaulreedsmith Member

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    while taunting and pointing at my chin it seems...:bonk
     
  10. KeithC

    KeithC Silver Supporting Member

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    If I remember right I just said that I couldn't disagree more with you. No harm no foul as far as I'm concerned.

    I loved Yes back in the day but used to say that he had bad "tone" (of course I didn't say tone back then!) but was a great player.

    Now I love all the tones he had used and still uses. Some can be jarring for sure and others are smoother.
    His choices are incredible to me so many times.
    He is one of those guitarists that I love but never tried to imitate. In some ways (to me) that is the highest praise for some reason!

    I have tickets to see the "new" Yes in July in OKC at the Zoo. No Jon Anderson unfortunately and no Wakeman but Mr. Howe will be there. Top notch I say. TOP NOTCH!

    All good.
     
  11. snarkle

    snarkle Silver Supporting Member

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    Well, I haven't read the whole apology, but I have watched the offending clip and I guess everyone has an off night! Not exactly classic Howe.

    (Then again, it's also the first time I've seen him play a Fender that didn't have legs.)

    Anyway, apology accepted!
     
  12. tms13pin

    tms13pin Supporting Member

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    Well, I, for one, never took your initial statement as derogatory. You
    simply made a statement and left things for people to discuss. I really
    hate it when people jump on an OP for saying they don't really dig this
    or that person's playing. Everyone's entitled to his/her own opinion.
    Just because that player is a god to you doesn't mean you need to bash
    the OP. You're free to say why you disagree in a civil manner, which is
    what many of the posts in that thread did... mine included, I think, but
    yes, there were also the losers who have to try to jump on people who
    don't dig their heroes. I've certainly had that happen to me before. I
    know I've got plenty of players that I don't really dig that if I listed them,
    I'd be bashed on here from here to eternity!

    So, no hard feeling at all from someone who puts Howe near the top of
    his faves list. I can see where some of the stuff he doesn't wouldn't be
    considered top-notch tone-wise etc. I don't even agree with all of his
    musical endeavours decisions, but the guy has to eat and had a family
    to feed and take care of too. Sometimes we forget this when discussing
    decisions some of our heroes make.

    --Tom
     
  13. V-Type

    V-Type Member

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    Hey no biggie. Its youre opinion. Just because 95% were on the other side doesnt invalidate what you feel.
    But had you tippy toed a little more with the post wording you may not have had such a big skid mark too show.
    But other than the indifference over that ill fated Howe thread I think you are a pretty cool cat.
     
  14. CharlyG

    CharlyG Play It Forward

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    Unless he puts out a blues album......meh


    j/k REALLY!
     
  15. '70 RS

    '70 RS Member

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    Where's dimpler when you need him......
     
  16. Oakvillain

    Oakvillain Member

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    Your apology was waaaaaaaaay too long man.

    It's just a forum. Let's move on to the next thread...
     
  17. thrashmetl

    thrashmetl Supporting Member

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    I know where you're coming from, I was on my way home from work one day, hit some traffic, and it turned out to be a scorched Disney bus (no one injured) and I started a thread about how hilarious I thought it was. I get you have to live in SoCal and know the Disney culture to understand, but it didn't go over well with the masses. I was scum of the earth for a while, but people forgot.

    Moral of the story, don't worry about it. They may remember the thread, but they won't remember who started it.
     
  18. buddyrama

    buddyrama Supporting Member

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    It is all good brother.
     
  19. jrjones

    jrjones Supporting Member

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    From someone who didn't and won't read the other thread: I forgive you.
     
  20. Fred Farkus

    Fred Farkus Member

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    Okay, after that long post I am wondering what you were drinking this time?...

    j/k ;):aok

    I didn't see the first thread. But in the vid you linked in this one, for one, Steve is somewhat imitating the feel of what Peter Banks did in the original recording of the song. Yeah, there were a couple minor clunkers in it but no harm no foul AFAIC. A few months ago I saw Yes in a concert on TV. They were promoting a "new" album (not "new" by any means, a few years old but I haven't kept up). They were playing with an orchestra from eastern Europe IIRC. I remember in a couple songs Steve's sound was a little jarring to me. But I got caught up in the whole thing, really loved the new music as well as the old classics, and on some of the songs his playing/sound completely soared. IOW the old Yes magic was there and Steve more than made up for the few things I didn't completely like.

    Guitar playing over the years has improved IMO. There are so many young youtube guitarists that blow away anything I did at that age. (This is in no small part due to people like Steve Howe and others.) I think that today we sort of take for granted a certain level of consistency with fluidity in playing and with sound. Back in the day when Steve was making a name for himself, in general people took more chances, stylistically, sound-wise, and performance-wise. They were experimenting and pushing envelopes and it didn't always work. Even some of his work on Yessongs was not the smoothest but then there were moments of brilliance that made up for it. So he's always sort of been that way with me. Even some of Jeff Beck's early work was not the most consistent. IMO it was just the environment and the dynamics of what was happening at the time with "rock" guitar evolving. IMO it's important to keep that perspective of the times.
     

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