Celestion F12-X200 Guitar Speaker for Amp Modellers and IRs.

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by johnhager25, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. madmarcus1960

    madmarcus1960 Supporting Member

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    Ugly one horned mule!
     
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  2. mnemonic

    mnemonic Member

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    Maybe this is not super useful information in the guitar world, but I plugged the T/S parameters and recommended cab dimensions (hard to read in the first image, so thank you both for the links) into WinISD so I could see what the bottom end resonance was like.

    For reference, this program would be used for finding the ideal enclosure size and port tuning for a bass cab or subwoofer. Typically in those applications you'd want a flat line, which would then taper off at some point at a low frequency that you don't mind being rolled off.

    I figured since this is a 'FRFR-ish' speaker designed for guitar players, its probably gonna have some form of mid bass hump, for some low resonance to make it a bit more 'guitar cab' feeling and sounding. I was just wondering how much we would see.

    The F12-X200 into Celestion's recommended cab is the GREEN line.

    Just for fun (and comparison), i also input the cabinet details for the TL806 (thiele) cab, from EV's cabinet plans. It seems that in the plans, there is a removable port cover that changes the port size, so I've input both figures. I'm pretty sure I got the port dimensions right but no guarantees!

    The RED line is the large port (port cover removed), the BLUE line is small port (port cover on).

    [​IMG]

    With Celestion's recommended cab, there is approx. 3.3db bump at 112hz, as expected. -3db rolloff happens at about 60hz.

    This speaker in a TL806 cab you can see there is a much bigger midbass hump, at a slightly higher frequency (between 120hz and 130hz) and the low frequency rolloff starts a bit sooner.


    Again, probably not super useful information for guitarists, but interesting none-the-less. I would expect this cab would sound less hi-fi and more 'guitar-cab'-like than running a modeler into a good quality PA speaker. So this maybe is a good solution if you don't like the sound of typical FRFR like studio monitors or PA speakers.

    Now i'm wondering, if I build a 2x12 cab for these speakers, will it sound even more guitar-cab-like, since it may get some of that phasing you get from multi-speaker guitar cabs. I never much liked FRFR when I tried it in the past, and I stuck with guitar cabs, but maybe this could be a fun project.

     
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  3. JoeInOttawa

    JoeInOttawa Member

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    I can only go by what Celestion says, and they say ported, but I also know they marketed it as a drop-in as you've suggested. I do hope it works that way. And I am encouraged by the fact that you have one of the initial (and it seems only) 20 or so and that it works properly. But I still think they have some production issues.
     
  4. Chocol8

    Chocol8 Member

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    They must have production issues for the rollout to be delayed so long. When was it first announced, more than 2 years ago, right?

    As for ported, look at the graphs mnemonic just posted above. When using a ported cabinet, all the dimensions become critical. Celestion’s ported design will work, many others will not. Actually, a bigger ported cab could make the low end even flatter than their reference cab, but you wouldn’t want to carry that around. Open backs have their issues as well, everything is a compromise.

    I do think it is a good solution for some, but it isn’t a miracle that will work in any cab, and it won’t convert all skeptics to FRFR lovers.
     
  5. JoeInOttawa

    JoeInOttawa Member

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    AVAILABILITY UPDATE: None.

    That is all.

    (Yes, this is an angry trolling post)
     
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  6. JiveTurkey

    JiveTurkey Trumpets and Tants Silver Supporting Member

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    Totally over this speaker. Really. I mean it this time. Also; it's not a troll post at all. You'd think a speaker company that produces speakers would, in fact; be able to produce speakers in a timely manner.
     
  7. JoeInOttawa

    JoeInOttawa Member

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    The last four words may be superfluous.
    :)
     
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  8. Chocol8

    Chocol8 Member

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    You have to remember that they are a startup that is new to the field. With only 95 years in the business, they don’t have the experience and expertise that a more established company might have.
     
  9. JiveTurkey

    JiveTurkey Trumpets and Tants Silver Supporting Member

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    Benefit of the doubt. Duh :D
    :roll
     
  10. MKB

    MKB Silver Supporting Member

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    Anybody heard any more about when these will be available in the USA? Have been waiting on notification from Sweetwater since January, and Thomann has had them since then. It's been going on 6 months, wonder what the holdup is??
     
  11. Chocol8

    Chocol8 Member

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    Thomann says in stock within about a week, but if you check in after a week it still says that. And then after another week...
     
  12. merlin17

    merlin17 Member

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    I'm sorry guys, this whole thing seems totally silly to me...
    What drives all of you to use a "FRLR" system that sounds "more like a guitar cab" than real FRFRs and by putting the speaker in almost random housings gives totally unknown results? You make your life harder than playing through a "real" guitar cab (because you're chasing that tone through a different system) and also FOH mixers will most definitely have a harder time if you send them an output with the same IR and amp settings you dialled in for the FRLR than if he'd miked the real cab.
    I'd buy a "real" FRFR (in the CLR or AXM12a range) or use a guitar cab.
     
  13. Chocol8

    Chocol8 Member

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    CLR = $1000 and who knows when it will ever be in-stock.

    F12-x200 = $150 and who knows if it will ever be in-stock.

    Putting the F12 into an open-back cab is going to give fairly predictable results. The bass rolls off due to the dipole nature of open cabs which happens to offset the excess bass from room reflections captured in most IR files.

    Putting the F12 in a DIY sealed or ported cab designed for it should also give predictable results with more bass extension which should work as well or better than most other solutions anywhere near the same price range.

    A high quality and higher priced FRFR should be better. If you just want one cab sound, using that cab will obviously be better. I don’t think Celestion intended it to replace or even compete with either.
     
  14. thechamp

    thechamp Member

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  15. JoeInOttawa

    JoeInOttawa Member

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    Great vid and review! Question: Did you leave the back off the cab for the review, or did you seal it back up? I'd be really interested in your thoughts in an open-back cab.
     
  16. thechamp

    thechamp Member

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  17. benifin

    benifin Supporting Member

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    Just for some real world perspective - Ive had this speaker now for over 2 months and it is fitted in a custom made - spec-by-spec-ported-cab- as per the recommended Celestion design. I live in Australia and got it from the "gear4music" in the UK - paid shipped and arrived in 6 days :)

    Done several VERY loud rock rehearsals and 2 live shows with it - 3rd live show this coming weekend.

    I came from 2+ years with an Atomic CLR and am also very familiar with the Xitone MBritt Cab also - my cousin and fellow guitarist has one and it sounds AWESOME. - much prefer it to the CLR.

    Anyway ...... in short, this speaker and cab combo sounds fantastic - it really does sound like a real cab but with a huge almost 90 / 90 tjhrow and it "reflects" the differnet IR's beautifully - lows and low-mids are really tight and the hi-end is never ice-picky / harsh .... very little global low/hi cuts needed

    Result - have sold my CLR and am now running this cab with my Matrix GT800.

    To my ears, it is the most musically pleasing and satisfying FRFR combo I have had - equal to the feel and vibe of the MBritt Xitone albeit slightly differnet sounding.

    I get the frustration - but hang in there - it is worth it - within a few minutes of first playing it I totally forgot I was using an FRFR solution.

    As always, YMMV, but in a good cab, this speaker feels and sounds great - its a definite keeper.

    All the best to all.
    Ben
     
  18. Chocol8

    Chocol8 Member

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    I need to build a ported cab! It sounds great open back, but I think a lot of that has to do with the natural bass rolloff offsetting excess bass in IR’s. I suspect it will be at its best in a ported cab, maybe with a DSP amp to EQ it flatter.
     
  19. guitarno

    guitarno Supporting Member

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    That sounds great. It would seem that the cab design it is in is a big factor as to how well it performs. Could you be more specific on the cab? Is that something you built yourself?
     
  20. benifin

    benifin Supporting Member

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