Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by Scumback Speakers, Feb 4, 2005.
Anyone seen this?
Well, the font they chose for the pre-Rola 20/25/30 looks like some kind of recent Eras Medium, which slants a bit (leans italic). The original font was aligned straight up and down. They coulda done better.
And it looks like Jim's T1239, pictured in the first post, has this same style repro label. Which explains why the resonance on the label (75 c/s) doesn't match the cone type (55 c/s).
Also, although it tends to get overlooked, there were actually some '60s "Rola Celestion Ltd. Thames Ditton Surrey" labels on Celestions loaded into Marshalls. So we have the phenomenon of "Rola pre Pre-Rolas".
Great of you to put all this together, Jim!
Exactly saros141...fakes, swaps, & factory mistakes abound. Like I mentioned earlier, this is why you need to know your cone #'s and Txxxx #'s. Labels are swapped with magnet covers, which after 30 plus years, fall off easily. Although I have in my possession, and have seen, original Pre Rola Celestions G12H's with G12M labels on deep magnet covers. Only the deep magnet covers came on G12H's, the G12M's had less depth (pictured earlier in the thread). Celestion hadn't made up correct power or magnet type labels as late as February 1969 for the G12H series. I just received a Pre Rola T1217 G12H30 102 003 cone with chassis codes of: FB2/M, T1217 (February 2nd, 1969). So between the repros, the swaps, and the factory mistakes, that History Of Marshall book is quite revealing. Anyone looking to purchase these old speakers should invest in one. It's certainly helped me "weed out" the real and the surreal on these speakers.
You're welcome, Jeff. I'm sure you could help with whatever I've missed or forgotten, too. It's not like you're unlearned in the subject.
Great info "Scumbag" very interesting and well researched.
Do you have any pictures of the T1174 and T1134 speakers??
It would be good to get a feel for the transition period from Alnico to ceramic.
Hope you can oblige.
The only T1134 I ever saw was in pictures. A guy out here in Southern California had one. Went to buy it, he pulled it out of storage and the cone was torn or punctured.
It had the very small oval red Celestion label on the magnet, no green cover on that one, and it was an early model. According to the HOM book, it was the predecessor to the G12H. Judging by the magnet size I saw in pictures, that would be likely.
Never saw the other T1174, sorry.
Thanks for the reply
So we are looking at the G12H pre-dating the G12M then?
I know the G12H definitely presents a very "Alnico" feel in it's efficiency and that is what Celestion were after. But what about early G12M's with out the Green-back cover?
No, the G12 T1134 was first, somewhere around the November, 64 timeframe, according to the HOM. However, they didn't make any weight distinctions on the magnets at that time. It seems it was just the "ceramic" G12 (no H or M designation). According to the HOM, the T1221 G12M Greenback was introduced in May 66, and the T1217 G12H30 75 hz lead cone (successor to the T1134) came out at the same time.
Keep in mind, when these speakers were "entered" or "introduced" could be months ahead of when anyone had them in amps that were sold to the public, so it could be six months after Celestion's introduction before Vox/Marshall/etc. could have actually installed them for production.
To further confound the issue, speakers are easily changed, so there's lots of room for variables.
I've got a 2/66 T1217 greenback, which is the earliest I've seen although I've heard of one from 12/65. These are G12H25s not G12H30, though of course with the 50oz. magnet, no G12H30 from '66 that I'm aware of. Can't recall offhand when the earliest T1221 I might have seen was from.
BTW, Defoldman, '66 G12H25 w/1777 cone is the closest sonically of the greenbacks to the alnico G12 in many ways, IMO, more so than later H models, although still a little "cleaner" maybe. They're really loud!
Hey Jeff, I'd love to borrow that speaker if at all possible. I'll pay for shipping and all that, of course, let me know if that's a possibility.
I've got an early 68 (01CA) 20 watt G12M 003 cone coming in from the UK in the next week or so. I think I'll have my G12H30 55hz Heritage speakers by then as well. I'm getting (Sam Ash honored the $119 each price including shipping! Whoa!), one 16, one 8 ohm model.
I'll probably see about getting LeonC and Moods together for a recording session of everything, make mp3 clips, and post them for all to listen to, if I can arrange it. Afterwards, I'll put up a list of what mp3 was created by what speaker/amp/guitar combination.
That should make it easy on everyone to determine what they like, or don't. It will be a good 10 days before I'm ready to do this, however, as the PR 20 watter is only getting boxed up today, and then shipped to me, so it will be a bit before I'm ready to proceed.
Sounds like some good taste testing!
For myself, would Love to hear a MP3 postmortem of this gettogether. To me, it seems like the speaker world has finally blossomed aftter 50 Years of Rock n Roll. The Guys in sunny CA doing this have got a chance to to lead countless pickers to that illusive sound in their head. The more sample speakers, configurations, brands, guitars, heads, text we have to wade through the better. We have the time.
I guess I have a couple.
A Vox labelled Greenback:
FC26R (June 1970)
15 ohms T1252
cone: 23 102 003
Sent the details to Dr Decibel at Celestion, who commented:
"T1252 is noted in our records as a Lightweight
speaker for Vox and is actually a G12L rather than a G12M which makes it much rarer."
Certainly I have found very little info of these (?20watter) G12Ls.
The other is a Blackback G12H:
GJ23 (July 1976)
Dr Decibels comment:
"T1886 is a 15ohm G12H special for Marshall"
Found DunxB, (formerly of Celestion and once Dr Decibel himself), commenting over on the Plexi Palace forum:
"I think I remember finding a box of 1105's in stock, and they were a low resonance guitar cone very similar to the 0444, but not quite the same (I can't remember what the difference was). I think it was done as a special for a customer, and was later used in a G12H-100 for Marshall."
I'd really appreciate any further info on either of these G12s.
Hey Scumbag! Long time no talk! How you doin'?
What date of manufacture would these numbers signify?
cones 3 102 003
numbers on the frames:
Z17DB (a little blury)
Z15DB (a little blury)
Also: what's the correct glue to reattach a greenback plastic cover to the magnet? one of mine came off. I don't want to melt the plastic by using the wrong stuff.
Looks like april 1957 or april 1993
Too bad my camera is shot but my speakers look exactly like this one:
Maybe the Z doesn't mean anything. i just found this page: http://www.unclespot.com/celestion_date_codes.html
17DB be 17th of April (4th month) 1969 (B)? and
15DB be 15th of April 1969?
The speaker above shows some king "Z" where mine does.
You've got the dates right now, Chuck. Actually, the first two digits are the day of the month. So 17DB is April 17, 1969, and 15DB is April 15, 1969. Forget the Z, or any other number in front, I've never been able to match this up to anything in the Celestion date charts. I use the one from abrown.com (Tone Tubby speaker developers) since it covers speakers up to the 90's...
Regarding cover glue. OCSR, www.speakerrepair.com, sells some brown glue like the stuff Celestion uses. Pretty cheap, as I remember, under $5. It gets brittle after 30 years, and you may have to glue it down again at that time. If you still have the speakers working, of course!
I've got the T1886 speaker here with an 1105 cone. This was a special low resonance 55hz cone made for a special order (DunxB and I are friends, and I think he was responding to a post I made on the Plexi Palace, IIRC). It sounds like a good G12H30 55hz. No worries on that one.
I've got Pre Rola G12S speakers that look exactly like G12M's, magnets are smaller, don't know the exact weight. G12L's I don't own, so I can't comment on those. Typically they do have smaller magnets, and it's noticable.
A T1252 I don't have. A T1417, a G12S, I do have. The magnet looks like a G12M in size, but it's supposed to be lighter. Go figure. No speaker cover, so I can't tell you if it's a 20 or 25 watt.
Thanks for the reply. Yes, it does have a noticeably smaller magnet - only 20 Oz allegedly, from what I have found info wise. Don't know how I didn't notice before in fact. It was only when Dr dB replied that I had another look - THEN it was obvious...!
It does to me too.
Cheers, and good luck with those plexi Recordings.