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Celestion Heritage G12M vrs Scumback SA-12M-75

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by 1Way, Oct 21, 2005.

  1. 1Way

    1Way Member

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    I'm nearly ready to purchase a great greenback speaker or clone. I'd like to hear about your experiences with these speakers. I might buy the m and the h versions to include more bass options.

    Also I'm interested in remarks between the SA-12M-75 and the SA-12M-LHDC large dust cone version.

    Wow, I just checked out a test thread where Scumbag offered a blind test of these different speakers. I think I liked the Scumbag speakers the best, at least that was my top two picks, the H and M models.
     
  2. HeeHaw

    HeeHaw Member

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    The scumbacks sounded better to me of the two.
     
  3. 1Way

    1Way Member

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    I'm new here, and I must soon run off to work, but I would like to express a concern that may or may not have been addressed. It seems like Mr Scumbag was involved in this taste testing, right? Or was this testing done by a known objective third party?

    I find the results VERY helpful, but there is a naging thought that it "might" not have been done in the most objective sense "if" one of the speaker makers was involved in the testing procedure.

    Has this issue been raised and covered yet?
    Thanks much!
     
  4. Scumback Speakers

    Scumback Speakers Gold Supporting Member

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    A valid question, 1Way!

    To answer your concern, AndyZ of the Line 6 forum was the engineer of the studio, and did all of the mic placement, recording tweaks, and all of that stuff. I just supplied some speakers and the two 4x12 cabinets and some muscle to swap them out when it came time to record different speakers. I purposely didn't want to be involved with any of the recording or EQ setup (beyond screwing in speakers and wiring them) for exactly the reasons you're asking about, as I wanted a fair and impartial test.

    Dan Boul did the guitar playing on most of the tracks thru the session, I did a few at the end with the Marshall Plexi and the Les Paul, only because Dan had to leave for family plans he'd made previously.

    Dan supplied the Heritage speakers, and a few others. I supplied the Pre Rola's and the Scumbacks. I also bought a Private Jack for the recording session to be included, and I broke it in at home on my stereo (as all the speakers in the shootout were) for 20 hours, then a couple more of high volume guitar playing just to make sure they were all treated the same.

    I hope that answers your questions about the fairness of the test. Good luck with your speaker tone search.
     
  5. laurencer83

    laurencer83 Member

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    they're both great speakers. keep in mind the celestion will need a little time to break in but not as much time as the H cone.

    and the scumbag will sound like an already broken in speaker. they're also a little cheaper and you can actually talk to jim if you have questions or problems.
     
  6. AndyZ

    AndyZ Member

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    Jim, it would also be fair to say that we usually kept a same EQ setting for a guitar to hear the difference. Unless it sounded so off we adjusted more for the recording process than for the speakers purpose. We really tried to keep it impartial.

    Now if Jim had given me free speakers, my decisions might be a bit more skewed... :D
     
  7. Scumback Speakers

    Scumback Speakers Gold Supporting Member

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    Hey AndyZ! How the heck are ya?

    I remember we had particular trouble with the Eminence Private Jack, so I know that one needed it's mic setup moved around 4 or 5 times, in addition to whatever you had to do in the control room to EQ it to sound as good as it did (barf!).

    Once again, thanks for putting yourself out to do all of the recording for us, Andy. I really appreciate the effort you went to...twice!
     
  8. Pentode

    Pentode Supporting Member

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    Has anyone compared the Heritage and Scumbags to the
    Weber 1230's?
     
  9. Scumback Speakers

    Scumback Speakers Gold Supporting Member

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    I haven't done that comparison. I know that Ted designed his C1230 as the equivalent to the G12H30 70th Anniversary Reissue speaker when it came out two years ago. The 1230-55 is his take on the 55hz version, although I can't remember if it was the 014 cone or the 444 cone he used as his target speaker. You could always check his site and read up on it, or email him to find out.
     
  10. Roe

    Roe Member

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    I've heard that the c1230-75 was first based on the G12H30 70th Anniversary Reissue, but that it now is based on a pre-rola speaker.
     
  11. 1Way

    1Way Member

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    Now Weber's own speakers enter the fray. How does Weber's speakers stack up to (Weber built) Scumbacks?

    I'm thinking of the Weber

    - Ceramic Silver Bell (15&30watt versions)(40oz magnet)
    - Ceramic 1230 (30watt)(50oz magnet)
     
  12. Play by Tone

    Play by Tone Member

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    Depends on the day.
    Just save yourself some time and get the Scumbacks. You can be assured that there isn't a better clone of a pre-rola. Jim had the inventory of pre-rolas that allowed a precise autopsy and comparison to be built. Apparently even Weber hadn't had this opportunity before Jim embarked on his pre-rola cloning mission.

    Now even with all that said, Celestion is still making great speakers. Their blue seems to hold the consensus as the best even when compared to the Weber blue.
     
  13. 1Way

    1Way Member

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    Here's a taste test. I wonder which speaker does early greenbacks better, Celestion Heritage G12M 20watt (after being fully broke-in), or Scumback SA12M-75?
    :BEER
    The Scumbag Amplifiers blind tone fest was pretty convincing on it's own. I am really excited about finally getting into a really awesome pair of speakers. I'm building my own 2 speaker cab out of many ply European Birch plywood. Maybe I should make it a convertible from closed back to open back? I plan on doing a lot of quiet to medium volume playing.

    I'm wondering about clone alternatives because I keep hearing from different forums about how cool such and such a speaker is supposed to be. I've heard the least about the MojoTone and Weber greenback like speakers. And I'm the type that just has to check out all the options before buying. I hate finding out later about a decent option that I simply overlooked.
     
  14. 1Way

    1Way Member

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    Yahoooooooo! ,,, yes.

    Just got word this morning (Tues) that Mr Scumbag (Jim Seavall) got my M.O. yesterday and is sending out my two most excellent speakers later today... So I should have them by this weekend!!!
    (chuckles)
    Oh ya!
    :D :dude
     
  15. 1Way

    1Way Member

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    Yes, I got the 55 hz model going today, but not before first discovering a failed homemade speaker cable. I'm going from the 1/4" jack speaker out from my amp directly to my speaker tabs because each speaker is sitting in an open back combo cab. I'm planning on buying a very long pre-made 1/4" to 1/4" mono speaker cable and cut it in half and crimp on spade ends and be done with it until I finally get the permanent closed back solid pine 2x12 cab.

    This first sonic test was done in an open back cabinet, at low volume, and prior to break in.

    After 8-10 mins of testing, I can tell two differences. First is that the level of preamp gain/distortion makes a big difference with this speaker. On a clean setting, the speaker operates more normally, but there is less top end than the V30.

    Darkness
    So far, and this is just an initial impression, it's like the uppermost highs are not there. The frequency rating may be a factor here. I hope to try out the 75hz soon. I suspect that will mostly effect things like picking sounds and higher pitched overtones, which with my V30, it has that top end but could get annoying after a while. So I'll say this speaker is truly "darker".

    Distortion, grit and tone
    I found that as I turned up the gain on the preamp, the speaker seems to contribute it's own distortion, if you will. At first I just dimed the preamp like I'm used to doing at lower volume, and then I would get this sort of buzzing sound that was pretty high up tonally, but this was mostly happening while playing rhythm power chords for example. Then I backed off the distortion and noticed that effect deminished. I found a more pleasing sound and turned up the volume some and that is when I first heard the guts, or the woodiness of this speaker!

    I think I was taping into the sweetspot in terms of distortion and tone range. I did some power chords and then went to some lead stuff, and wow, this speaker started to turn me on. Hanging on a note middway up the fretboard and midway in the strings can get you some awesome feedback characteristics. It's very lively. It's like I'm hearing two characteristics, the rubber doping which is heavily applied at the cone where the treble and upper mids are created, and I'm hearing a sort of woody sound, like the cone's paper voice is shining through. It's hard to explain, but it sort of reminds me of brand new tennis shoes on the hardwood gym floor, but not squeeky, sort of a wood and rubber grippiness. I feel certain that this will make lead work especially fun!

    Remember, this is a very initial impression from an open back cabinet, at low volume, and prior to break in.

    See you tomorrow. Gotta run to work.
     
  16. Play by Tone

    Play by Tone Member

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    Give the speaker a little time to get worked in.

    The first couple nights with the speakers and my IEM setup I was noticing a "fizzle" thing going on, but then my other cab sounded similar with a new g12h30. So I didn't cast any judgement.

    Now the speakers have smoothed out and blossomed at the same time. The high end is there and lively. Balanced itself out.

    They have turned out to be a great match for my 4x12 cab. I'm 100% satisfied.
     
  17. 1Way

    1Way Member

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    10-4 partner!

    I was wondering/thinking the same thing. I'll report back as I get these babies broke in! But so far I am very impressed.
     
  18. Scumback Speakers

    Scumback Speakers Gold Supporting Member

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    Now that's what I like to hear. Thanks for the update, I was wondering! :dude
     
  19. 1Way

    1Way Member

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    Oh man. Man. Dudes, oh man...

    :D

    These Scumbacks are the BEST! They totally rock!

    Buzz completely gone
    I was not able to reproduce whatever buzzy sort of sound I heard the other day. I think I must have played some higher bar chords with tons of distortion which resounded in the lows and highs. These speakers are more sensitive to distortion than any I have ever experienced. I can't recreate that sound at all. It's all goodness.

    bla bla bla
    These speakers have taken my rig to several higher levels. I can instantly hear my pickups better on my Guitar. I used to leave my amp's preamp maxed, but now I like it around 6 or so!!! And using two different (tone range) speakers is just completely awesome! Check this out. I do not normally get energized by strumming some open chords. I hit E, then D, then A. I was starting to get into it, sounded great. Then I started isolating my strumming, first two strokes was the thirst three fatter strings, then the last punch was the last three skinny strings, and my two cabs were seriously exchanging parts! They were stacked right over each other, but it was like 2 chuga chuga's from the lower 55 cab, then a war cry from the 57 top cab. It was very noticeable and cracked me up with the new fun. So the sonic range between these two speakers are both wide and distinct, and they work together most excellently! My biggest addition is the bass end which I am not used to hearing, not even from the boomy V30. Plus the overall quality is better, preamp gain from 10 to 6.5, that just amazes me, I would have never guessed about such a result.

    Everything sounds better
    Did you get my gain preamp setting down from 10 to 6! At first my thought was that these speakers are creating their own distortion, like early break up, but I'm not so sure that is completely accurate. I think that they have a tonal quality that allows for a better reproduction of the best in my amp and guitar. I NEVER would have been satisfied by leaving the gain at 6 with the V30, absolutely not. But for lead work I still like more gain. It seems like I get something like twice the bass than before. Oh, and I'm not missing the top end, especially since hooking up the 75! Right out of the box, I'd say strum around for at least 15minuets with the bass cranked and neck pickup selected, strum lower open chords and after that, crank it up, go at it! I did that with the 75 and it showed no signs of pre-break in quirks.

    Wow
    I was jamming for about 15-20 mins, and I kept turning off the jam box so I could just do my own thing because the sound was so cool. Right at the end I broke my E string and so I went upstairs with a big grin, breathing sorta deeply and feeling a bit sweaty. Wow.

    Break in?
    After this, I seriously having second thoughts about breaking them in! I was playing the MV at 3.5-4 and the preamp gain from 5-7 and everything sounded fantastic, and it handles distortion really well. I am completely satisfied with these Scumbag speakers!

    :dude
     
  20. dehughes

    dehughes Member

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    1Way, which Scumback speakers did you get? I think you picked up a 75Hz and a 55Hz, but I'm not sure which is H or M or....

    I ask, as I too am stuck between the Heritage M and the Scumback M. I've owned the Scumback H75, and it was killer, but the Ms for both are unheard to me....and it is the M magnet that I'm now considering. :(

    Thanks!


    david
     

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