Chord Help

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by jdiesel77, Jan 2, 2008.

  1. jdiesel77

    jdiesel77 Member

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    Happy New Year! Which chords contain the notes C, E and either A# or Bb? Is there a such thing as a C7#13?
     
  2. lhallam

    lhallam Member

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    It's possible to provide a variety of names for a chord as it all depends upon context.

    In other words one tune having a chord with notes E-G-Bb-D could be an Emi7b5 or it could be a C9 all depending upon how it's used.

    So you can get lots of answers.

    Although arguable, I was taught that a 13th chord should have a b7 in it (ie a dominant 7th chord) otherwise without the b7 it should be considered a 6th chord.

    Given all that I have said, there is typically no #13th chord because it would be considered a dominant 7th, HOWEVER, there are always exceptions and interpretations so theoretically it's possible. Once again given the context of how it is used.

    How's that for a non-answer? ;)

    For your answer, my first guess would be a C dominant 7 interpreting the "A#" as it's enharmonic Bb.
     
  3. jdiesel77

    jdiesel77 Member

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    maybe this will help.. The progression goes G# or Ab, then that chord (sort of as a passing chord) to an Fm to C# or Db, back to the first chord. Then first chord to a d#7 or eb7. Basically, i think the progression, without the chord i dont understand is.. I, iv, IV, I. I, V7
     
  4. lhallam

    lhallam Member

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    Let's keep it in Ab for this discussion.

    <Editted>

    JonR's answer is right.

    Regardless, note that it acts like a C7 going to the Fminor. Which is what is the important part as it causes your ear to want to resolve from the C7 to the F.
     
  5. jdiesel77

    jdiesel77 Member

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    I think its a C also but how is it C7 if there is an A# in it?
     
  6. JonR

    JonR Member

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    A# = Bb
    C7 = C-E-G-Bb.
    ;)

    Your progression (if I read you right) is Ab-C7-Fm-Db-Ab-Eb7. That's key of Ab major, and breaks down as follows:
    Code:
     
    Ab  C7  Fm  Db  Ab  Eb7
    I  V/vi vi  IV  I    V
    
    So the C7 is a "secondary dominant" ("V/vi" = V of the vi chord, Fm).
    It's missing its 5th (G), but no big deal.
     
  7. jdiesel77

    jdiesel77 Member

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    a ha!!!!!!!! thanks!! that makes much more sense! I totally forgot about the ol secondary dominant. Gets me every time! Ok so now that makes sense. So can i use the secondary dominant any time ? Especially as a passing chord?
     
  8. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Strictly speaking, secondary dominants always resolve up a 4th, by definition - they are always the V (dominant) of the following chord.
    Every chord of a key can have its own dominant.
    Eg in the key of C major, you have all these:
    C7 = V of F
    D7 = V of G
    E7 = V of Am
    F#7 = V of Bdim (I'm suspicious of this one, but it's theoretically accepted)
    A7 = V of Dm
    B7 = V of Em
    (and G7, of course is the primary dominant of the key.)

    As I say, the point of using any of these dom7s is to make a stronger move to their target chord.
    However, you can use any chord in any way you like!
    You could, eg, use E7 to move to F.
    And D7 could be followed by C. (This is what happens in Bob Dylan's "Don't Think Twice" - C-C7-F-D7-C... etc.)
    The old jazz tune "Nobody's Business If I Do" does both: C-E7-F-D7-C...

    The reason those sequences work is not to do with secondary dominants, but to do with passing notes: voice-leading.
    So the G in the C chord will go up to G# on the E, and then to A on the F chord. The C will go down to B on the E chord, then to A on the F. The F will go up to F# on the D7, and then to G on the C chord.
    It's possible to interpret these moves as various kinds of subsitutes for other more "conventional" moves - but I wouldn't worry too much about that. They sound good, and that's what matters.

    In short, don't let theoretical concepts limit you (make you think you "can't" do something) - let them inspire you, by showing you different paths. Always trust your ear, not books! (or websites... ;) )
     
  9. jdiesel77

    jdiesel77 Member

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    jonr thanks so much...makes sense! ahhhhhhhh to understand theory..must be nice!
     

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