Circle Fretting System

Discussion in 'Guitars in General' started by gtrfinder, Oct 14, 2008.

  1. gtrfinder

    gtrfinder Supporting Member

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  2. c_mac

    c_mac Member

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    This is the Gear Page homey. They didn't have goofy frets in the 1950's so they will not receive positive reviews here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2008
  3. lancerontrack

    lancerontrack Member

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    thats my first time ever seeing or hearing of that. man they just never stop making new stuff do they?
     
  4. Bryan T

    Bryan T Guitar Owner Silver Supporting Member

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    Very interesting. It is sort of the opposite of the Novax system. In the Novax system each string gets its own scale length, in this each strings has the same scale length. One of the justifications of the Novax system is that the 'clang frequency' (an inharmonic sound that is tied to the scale length, regardless of string gauge or tension) is different for each string, producing a more harmonious sound. The clang frequency for this system would, presumably, be the exactly the same for each string - even more so than for a normal guitar.

    Thanks for the link.

    Bryan
     
  5. lancerontrack

    lancerontrack Member

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    wow i must be living under a rock or something.
     
  6. kimock

    kimock Member

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    That may not be a correct reading of the clang tone thang.
    It should vary with string construction, I thought including gauge as well, but independent of tension as you suggest.
    It's some odd mode of vibration, but it would still be determined by the strings mass and/or distribution of mass, core to wrap ratio and other such thingamabobs, technically.
    I'm not exactly sure what this has to do with anything, but I'm here to tell you with great certainty that you must be mistaken, if only because I feel that in my near total ignorance of the subject that I must be right simply because I don't know you and this is the internet.

    If any of the above turns out to be not the case, or if you're my cousin or something like that, I'll still be right and you'll still be wrong because you can't tell when I'm being serious or not, again because this is the internet, even if it does turn out that I know you.

    So don't try anything cuz; I can still do that thing with the jar of bees, and your trick with the hose never works. . .
     
  7. Bryan T

    Bryan T Guitar Owner Silver Supporting Member

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    Steve,

    Here's what Ralph Novak wrote about clang tones:

    The whole article: http://www.novaxguitars.com/info/technical.html

    It does sound like the gauge of the string matters, though 'minimally.' I'm not sure about construction.

    Bryan

    P.S. And I've been practicing that trick with the hose.
     
  8. kimock

    kimock Member

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    Oh ****. . .

    The Clang Tone of the Pianoforte

    Armand F. Knoblaugh [SIZE=-1]The Baldwin Company [/SIZE]

    This phenomenon occurs in the bass section of all pianofortes and is termed a “clang” or “wolf” tone by piano makers. It comprises a distinctly audible, high pitched sound, emitted with the bass tone when the string is struck in the usual manner. Its pitch, varying from 500 to 3000 c.p.s. throughout a piano, is constant for any one string but varies with string dimensions, being higher for the shorter, lighter bass wires. The fundamental tones of the corresponding bass strings range from 30 to 100 c.p.s. With the aid of a tone analyzer and other apparatus, the effect has been shown to be due to a longitudinal vibration of the bass string. The velocity along the string has been found to be (AE/M)[​IMG] where A = the cross-sectional area of the core wire, E = the modulus of elasticity of the core wire material, and M = the total mass (core+wrapping) per unit length of the string. Dividing the velocity by twice the length of the string yields the frequency of the clang, confirmed by observation and experiment. The clang has its own system of partials, substantially harmonic. The component of hammer motion tangential to the string is probably an exciting cause and the complex motion of the bass bridge probably permits transfer of energy to the soundboard. ©1944 Acoustical Society of America


    OK, there's some kind of equation in there that requires some additional information, but it's like Radio Shack; you don't really have to tell. . .
    According to Mr Novak, with whom I've spoken at length regarding clang tone, but in a different context, the pitch of the clang can be changed by as much as a comma as a result of changing tension.

    He conveniently neglected to mention whose comma, but some of those old guys like Pythagoras and Didymus, had really huge commas, I mean you would be shocked at size of those guys commas, but you know what they say about a guy with big (AE/M) 1/2!?!?:roll
     
  9. mc5nrg

    mc5nrg Supporting Member

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    The Clangtones....is that name taken yet? Time to search away!


    Edit: Didn't find anything, I call dibs!
     
  10. jazzandmetal?

    jazzandmetal? Supporting Member

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    :roll
     
  11. kimock

    kimock Member

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    I think maybe with a "K" it's taken, but WTF, I say me and you and Bryan just go down there with the bees and the hose and take it back.

    OK, and if not, or we don't find them or something, I wonder if The Circle Fretting System is taken yet?
    S'not bad. . .:dunno
     
  12. walterw

    walterw Gold Supporting Member

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    "...I'd like to demonstrate a clang tone for you. I have a guitar, some rosin, and a rag. First, we'll produce the tone with the string tuned to pitch. I'll rub some rosin on the rag and glide it along the string. EEEEK! Sounds like someone learning to play the violin! Now I'll lower the tension of the string and compare the clang tone. EEEEK! Sounds the same, doesn't it? Just to be sure, I'll tune it up again. EEEEK! That's a horrible sound, but it's amazing that the pitch doesn't change when the string is re-tensioned..." -Ralph Novak

    i've heard that sound! trying to clean a rusty plain string with a rag, it will produce that piercing whistle. it's "longitudinal" vibration? like holding the end of a stretched-out slinky and flicking your hand, so that a compressed section of slinky zooms down the coil?

    i haven't tried detuning a string in that circumstance to see if the pitch changes, but i will.

    wouldn't these deadly clang tones be different for each string anyway unless you were only playing 4ths (or the third between the B and G)?
     
  13. kimock

    kimock Member

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    Hey Walter, how are you doing? Yeah, the clang tone stays about the same no matter the tension, or even if the string is attached to the instrument.

    I don't know if it's like that. . .
    They're different at every gauge and/or length, and they're all extremely high pitched, but it's hard for me to say what effect if any they have on the timbre of the guitar under all possible "normal" playing conditions.
    But, and it's a big butt to go along with Didymus' comma. .
    In the case of a bent note, or stretched string, whatever you want to call it, if the tension and pitch of the fundamental are moving and at least two other factors, the resonant frequency of the guitar, and the "clang tone" of the string are fixed, you're going to have to get some very complex interaction by way of the harmonic combination tones.
    Y'know, when you sweep one frequency past another fixed frequency and it produces a third tone. Right?
    http://users.rcn.com/dante.interport/winckel.html

    This phenomenon shows up @ TGP as "ghost notes", the common underfiltered amp artifact that produces a descending pitch when you bend a note up, modulating through that 60 cycle hum.

    In a much finer and more musical fashion this effect contributes to the formant glide and/or spectral shift in the timbre of the stretched string on an electric guitar though an amp whose gain is magnifying that resident behavior of the string.

    I think there's a lot of folks around here who would attribute this shifting formant vowel sound behavior to the amp exclusively: I say ********. If it's not happening on the string, it's not there to amplify in the first place.
    Anyway, that's my context for trying to identify those possible fixed frequencies against which the guitaristic tension and pitch shifting techniques occur. I'm trying to seperate the string and guitar behavior from the amplifier behavior for my own developmental purposes, as obviously it does me no good to think I'm doing something with the amp if I'm really doing it with the guitar, or the string itself.
    Or vice versa. . .

    OP, sorry about the hijack,
    To answer your question, IMHO I have never heard any alternative to the straight fret 12 edo standard guitar thing that I didn't think was a big improvement, (including no frets at all) and I've never heard any tuning or intonation scheme that retained the straight frets and messed with the nut that wasn't worse.

    I'm sure the circle fret system is a safe bet based solely on what a ridiculous compromise the current system is. Again IMHO.

    More fun than half a gallon of red ants, huh?
     

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