Couple questions about some things ( Beta 57, Beta 58 and Shure IEMs)

Floyd Eye

Senior Member
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I am going to be providing sound for a band I know and they are using a few things that are foreign to me. The guys they usually use are apparently not available for this date. I could most likely find the answers to these questions by Googling it, but hey, this is a gear forum, we like talking about this **** and I trust you guys so here goes. I will not have a lot of time to set my system up on this gig so I am trying to do a little homework.

The singer of this band is a guy I know who used to come to see my band a lot. The thing is that the little bastard stole 3/4 of my set list and is currently filling the vacuum created when my band was effectively sidelined thanks to, wait for it, an idiot drummer. Who knew drummer's were such a pain in the ass? The down side is, well, he stole my Schtick. The upside is I will be completely and utterly familiar with the material.


First off my rig.

Mixwiz
DSR12s
LS801Ps
Alto TS112As for monitors
4 channels of 15 band GEQ for monitors
2 channels of GEQ for mains and subs


I have an older 16 X 4 snake. The returns are 1/4" and at least one of them is noisy so I don't know if they are unbalanced or just dirty or what. At any rate I assume that I can use the snake with my powered speakers by using the sends and turnarounds correct?

The singer in this band has Shure IEMs. I have absolutely zero experience with IEMs. I forget which model he uses, but it's not the cheapest. He said he can mix himself. I prefer that anyway since I am not going to be using a listening wedge or headphones to mix monitors. I assume this to mean he has some sort of little personal mixer. I mean just the IEM unit won't allow him to do that will it? So my question is do I just feed his unit via an aux the same as I would the wedges or do I feed it from a different output on the mixwiz? Obviously he prefers stereo but says he will take mono over a wedge. I am guessing that to give him a stereo mix I will not be using an aux?

All the vocal mics are Beta 58s. Are there any general EQ differences between these and SM58s that would be helpful for me to know about beforehand. As far as placing the wedges, are these like regular 58s or should the wedges be off to the side a little?

Both guitarists use 1x12 combos and the bass player has a little combo of some sort. I think one of the guitarists will be using a Beta 57 on his cab and the other a regular 57. Any big differences there I should know about?
The bass player will be using a BDDI, but being a bass player myself I will likely put a mic on the cab as well ( AKG P2) for some grit. This bass player isn't that good, but it's my opinion that his tone should be.

These guys play quite a bit and this could very well turn into a regular gig, at least while my band is down and I am bored as hell. So I'd like to make them sound really good.

Thanks
 

335guy

Member
Messages
5,232
I have an older 16 X 4 snake. The returns are 1/4" and at least one of them is noisy so I don't know if they are unbalanced or just dirty or what. At any rate I assume that I can use the snake with my powered speakers by using the sends and turnarounds correct?
You'll need to determine if the 1/4" return plugs are unbalanced 1/4" or balanced TRS plugs. Obviously, balanced is best for longer runs. With 4 returns, that limits you on aux sends. If you use two for the mains ( doing your pan thing with the subs ), then that leaves two for monitors. The singer needs one for his IEM setup most likely. That would leave one aux/monitor mix for the rest of the band.

So my question is do I just feed his unit via an aux the same as I would the wedges or do I feed it from a different output on the mixwiz? Obviously he prefers stereo but says he will take mono over a wedge. I am guessing that to give him a stereo mix I will not be using an aux?
One would normally use an aux send for monitors, either for IEM's or wedges. No point in sending "stereo" since you're not mixing in stereo and the monitors aren't "stereo". Remember, you're using the channel pan control to "aux feed" the subs. One side is hard panned to mains, the other goes to the subs. You don't have a stereo mix to send him. Plus, the aux sends are mono, and typically, when running stereo, a vocalist would be panned center anyway, so what's the point of stereo for a vocalist?

All the vocal mics are Beta 58s. Are there any general EQ differences between these and SM58s that would be helpful for me to know about beforehand. As far as placing the wedges, are these like regular 58s or should the wedges be off to the side a little?
You'll find the beta's to have better feedback rejection than regular 58's. They are also a shade louder and a tad brighter. Kinda like a 58 with a boost. Don't sweat working with beta's, they'll sound great.

Both guitarists use 1x12 combos and the bass player has a little combo of some sort. I think one of the guitarists will be using a Beta 57 on his cab and the other a regular 57. Any big differences there I should know about?
Again, similar to the beta 58's, the beta 57's are a tad brighter and a little louder. Fair feedback rejection. Just EQ to what sounds good out front and don't worry about it. But don't place the mic dead center of the speaker, facing right at the cone. Start about halfway between the edge of the actual speaker and the center of the speaker. Still too bright? Move mic away from center. Too dark? Move closer to the center of the speaker.

The bass player will be using a BDDI, but being a bass player myself I will likely put a mic on the cab as well ( AKG P2) for some grit. This bass player isn't that good, but it's my opinion that his tone should be.
That's a personal choice. Myself? I prefer just running the bass direct. If the bass amp has a DI built in, I'll use that post amp IF the bass player uses some "grit" in his amp. If not ( a clean player ), then I'll run the DI feed before his amp tone, so I can shape it for the mains. It's cleaner of a sound without concerning myself with other stuff leaking into the bass amp mic. There's no rules when reinforcing bass guitar live. So, whatever floats your boat, as they say.
 

Floyd Eye

Senior Member
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13,865
I'm pretty good at mixing bass. It occurs to me though that this guy is using a SS combo so there's no point in mic'ing the cab. The SansAmp will give it some grit, which is necessary for this type of music.

As to the returns, I was planning on using turnarounds for the monitors too and sending them through unused sends on the snake, then using XLR-TRS adaptors at the board. Their drummer only mics the kick and one up top so that gives me extra channels on the board. So can I not just go from my L and R outs to sends on the snake (TRS-XLR adaptor) to the mains/subs (turnaround) ?

It was my understanding though that to give a stereo feed to the IEM ( remember, he's going to want to hear the bass, drums and guitars too) I would have to burn 2 auxes. That's why I was curious if there was another way to send him a signal besides the auxes. Like I said, I have no experience with IEMs other than the old drummer used a Rolls, which I just fed like any other monitor off an aux.
 

335guy

Member
Messages
5,232
If you use adapters you should be able to use the snake's mic cabling to send signal back to speakers ( mains and/or monitors ). They're just carrying signal but the xlr connections might be backwards. That's where the adapters would come into play. Depending on the stage box, you might need male to male or female to female xlr adapters,

Typically, a stage box would have female xlr connectors to accept the male end of a mic xlr cable. The returns can be either xlr or TRS or 1/4" ( although plain unbalanced 1/4" would be a poor design). All this depends on the configuration of your snake and stage box.

I guess you could use the headphone monitor send to send a signal to the singer's IEM. That would be a "mix" of the FOH usually. Not sure on if the mixwiz allows one to use the headphone monitor out for both mains and aux's.
 

modulusman

Member
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2,025
If the xlr inputs on the dsr speakers are wired in parallel then you could use the female input and not need a turn around. Just use a mic cord from an open input on the snake.
 

Floyd Eye

Senior Member
Messages
13,865
If the xlr inputs on the dsr speakers are wired in parallel then you could use the female input and not need a turn around. Just use a mic cord from an open input on the snake.

They're not. One is an input and the other is labeled "Thru" ( output).

The turnarounds were cheap enough and are currently on their way here. Is there any issues or potential problems using them?
 

Mister Natural

Gold Supporting Member
Messages
1,661
I don't have a lot of feed back on your patching issues but I see just a couple of things
1. If singer has never used IEMs before, he's gonna have some difficulty with the isolation they provide. Most guys are more comfortable with a stage mic running into the monitor mix, just for "ambience". When I saw Bella Fleck, his band had 4 or 5 mics just open on stage for that very purpose.
2. The beta-versions of the mics are as described above. A little more open on the top and less prone to feeding back. Excellent mics.

peace
 

modulusman

Member
Messages
2,025
They're not. One is an input and the other is labeled "Thru" ( output).

The turnarounds were cheap enough and are currently on their way here. Is there any issues or potential problems using them?
It doesn't matter, my DXRs are also labeled thru and it will work with either input.
 

Floyd Eye

Senior Member
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Which begs another question. Can I hook the Alto TS112As up like that as well? And can I daisy chain them to their respective counterparts that way?
 

modulusman

Member
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Which begs another question. Can I hook the Alto TS112As up like that as well? And can I daisy chain them to their respective counterparts that way?
I hooked up my Yamaha DXR10 using a TRS to female xlr just to be sure and it works that way. AS far as the Altos it looks like it has a mix output to daisy chain through. Not sure if you can connect it backwards or not.
 

Floyd Eye

Senior Member
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13,865
I hooked up my Yamaha DXR10 using a TRS to female xlr just to be sure and it works that way. AS far as the Altos it looks like it has a mix output to daisy chain through. Not sure if you can connect it backwards or not.

Thanks brother. I got the turnarounds and adaptors already on the way so I'll just use them.
 

walterw

Platinum Supporting Member
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38,240
Which begs another question. Can I hook the Alto TS112As up like that as well? And can I daisy chain them to their respective counterparts that way?
why would you daisy chain the monitors? they should each have their own mix, so they each need their own input.

but yeah, those "thru" jacks are just parallel, same as the two jacks on the back of a typical bass cab.

as for IEM dude, you could give him any two signals to put together for a "stereo" mix; he could take two of the auxes, or you could give him one aux like everybody else is gonna get (who does he think he is anyway?) and maybe a split off the main mix for his other input. his pack will let him pan between one and the other.

(i vote one aux send and tell him to live with it, you're gonna have enough of a pain trying to dial in his IEM mix to where he's happy while mixing the rest of the band.)
 

Floyd Eye

Senior Member
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13,865
why would you daisy chain the monitors? they should each have their own mix, so they each need their own input.

but yeah, those "thru" jacks are just parallel, same as the two jacks on the back of a typical bass cab.

as for IEM dude, you could give him any two signals to put together for a "stereo" mix; he could take two of the auxes, or you could give him one aux like everybody else is gonna get (who does he think he is anyway?) and maybe a split off the main mix for his other input. his pack will let him pan between one and the other.

(i vote one aux send and tell him to live with it, you're gonna have enough of a pain trying to dial in his IEM mix to where he's happy while mixing the rest of the band.)
The bass player and the guitard, I mean guitarist, who are on the same side want the same mix ( guitarist opposite side and all vocals). No point in burning an extra aux. That leaves one for the singer, one for the drummer and one for the other guitarist.


So the "Mix out" jacks on the Alto are just parallel jacks? What about the input and output jacks on the LS801P?
 

walterw

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
38,240
The bass player and the guitard, I mean guitarist, who are on the same side want the same mix ( guitarist opposite side and all vocals). No point in burning an extra aux.
wow, that's good then; usually it's "don't want", or at best "will tolerate" a shared mix.
So the "Mix out" jacks on the Alto are just parallel jacks?
that's interesting! the "mix out" jack is indeed what you'd use to jump to the next wedge, but you could put two inputs into one box and have them both show up in the other box.

(also, keep that contour button out for wedge use, a bass boost is the opposite of what you want here; in fact, i'd chop off everything below about 100Hz on your monitor graphics for the vocal wedges. maybe you could sneak some 80 or 63 back in for the drummer's wedge, but not much, those boxes aren't gonna handle kick drum.)
What about the input and output jacks on the LS801P?
yep, use whichever end of the mic cable fits, and just jump 'em across to the other one. i think that extra "mono blend" in is so you can put a left and right in to the two XLRs and have the box sum them together mono.
 

Floyd Eye

Senior Member
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13,865
wow, that's good then; usually it's "don't want", or at best "will tolerate" a shared mix.

that's interesting! the "mix out" jack is indeed what you'd use to jump to the next wedge, but you could put two inputs into one box and have them both show up in the other box.

(also, keep that contour button out for wedge use, a bass boost is the opposite of what you want here; in fact, i'd chop off everything below about 100Hz on your monitor graphics for the vocal wedges. maybe you could sneak some 80 or 63 back in for the drummer's wedge, but not much, those boxes aren't gonna handle kick drum.)

yep, use whichever end of the mic cable fits, and just jump 'em across to the other one. i think that extra "mono blend" in is so you can put a left and right in to the two XLRs and have the box sum them together mono.

Yeah, I never use the contour switch. Not on the DSRs either. I have the HPFs on the channel strips ( where appropriate) engaged, everything below 100Hz on all EQs except the sub EQ is chopped off. I never put kick in any wedges. The few instances that I put kick in any monitors at all have been either with my old drummer's IEMs or the few times I ran a passive sub under a full range box as a drum monitor.


As for the Yorkville, after I plug an XLR into the stage box end of the snake, the other end of the XLR, where I would hook it to the sub, is going to only fit in the jack marked "Output". So if I am reading what you said correctly, this is ok? Then I would just plug an XLR into the jack marked input and run it over to the other sub, obviously plugging it into the jack marked output again?
 




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