Creating tensions on the II chord

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by purestmonk, May 17, 2008.

  1. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

    Messages:
    642
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    There has always been a lot of discussions on creating tensions over the V dominant chord. Whenever I play a II-V-I, I could easily create a lot of tension over the V chord.

    However I would like to make things more coherent in the sense that I want to build up tension right at the II chord and carry over to the V chord then resolve on the I chord. Does anyone have any idea as to how to create "tasteful" dissonance/tension over II chord?

    I only use the D lydian dominant over a Dm and that works really well for me. Hope to hear some ideas.

    Thanks
     
  2. russ6100

    russ6100 Member

    Messages:
    4,111
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    In the context of the adding tension to the ii7 of a ii7-V7-I, the easiest way for me, and something I do a lot, especially for up-tempo stuff is to go straight to the V7. You just start your tension early. Sometimes I find myself doing the opposite - maybe I couldn't tear myself away from the ii7 in time, so I just stay on it to the I.

    Or just add the tensions on the ii7 in "direct mode" i.e., not treating it like another chord, or superimposing stuff. Most commonly, (not too tense*) are the natural 7 and the b5. But all notes are good, depending on what you're trying to achieve.....



    * Sometimes I'd like to banish the word tension when referring to alterations on chords. I think more in terms of certain notes having different kinds of energy.....
     
  3. shaynewgreen

    shaynewgreen Member

    Messages:
    59
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2008
    super locrian and half whole dim on the 2 can be great when executed well (so long as the 2 is major or dominant).
     
  4. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

    Messages:
    25,778
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Location:
    Monterey, CA
    Great advice Russ .. the sound of Scofield to a tee ...
    Especially when changes are flying by (or not ..:)

    (by the way, you always give great advice ..)


    Actually it doesn't matter if the 2 is minor ...
    Those excellent choices will still work well ... ... ;)


    I know of a few players who won't even resolve a Dominant tension
    if they are playing with another backing chordal instrument ...
    ...
     
  5. russ6100

    russ6100 Member

    Messages:
    4,111
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Lucidology wrote:
    Hey - you've only heard my music related advice. Ask me about women or finance and I'll tell ya brother, you'll be on a straight road to sure peril...:AOK

    Oh yeah! Like, in a blues, play some jagged-ass, angular, twisted, oughtta-be-illegal line over the ii7-V7 or V7 and just stop! (Take the horn outta yer mouth) - there are few things in this life much hipper than that, my friend!

    Or just keep it going, don't resolve it, and right through the turnaround, and if you're feeling reeeeal dangerous, don't play anything that makes any sort of sense until you hit a guide tone on the IV7 in the next chorus!

    And if anybody gives ya any grief, tell 'em, "Hey cuzzzz, dig - it's like speakin' in tongues!"
     
  6. ivers

    ivers Member

    Messages:
    3,234
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2005
    Location:
    Norway
    You could always superimpose a sequence like this: A7-Abmajor7(or Ab7)-G7, instead of Dm7-G7...

    I often like to go on a detour to the dominant to the minor-chord, like in another pretty common scenario, where you use an Em7 instead of a Cmaj7 in a tune, in which case moving to the B7 would be a way of adding a bit of tension.
     
  7. gennation

    gennation Member

    Messages:
    6,710
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2006
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Just treat the ii and the V as nothing but a V7. Then resolve it to the I.

    Try this, just play an Ab W-H scale for the Dm7 and the G7 in a Dm7-G7-Cmaj7 progression.

    Also try your V7alt licks covering both the ii and the V7.

    As you progress through a "solo" and build it, you'll eventually hear that you don't necessarily have to "change scales" for the two chords but can treat them as one entity...as G9, since Dm7 over G7 yields a G9 type chord.

    Now you'll have all kind of tension over the ii chord.

    Also try using the lines from a ii-V-i Relative Minor progression for your ii-V-I progression. IOW, for Dm7-G7-Cmaj7, treat it as playing Bm7b5-E7-Am7. You'll will find some refreshing sounds in that concept.
     
  8. Austinrocks

    Austinrocks Member

    Messages:
    7,026
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2007
    A very tense chord for the ii is ii9 or Dmin9 the 9th and the minor 2nd are fairly dissonant, much more tense than a min7 will be. Often play ii7 to ii9 to V.
     
  9. brad347

    brad347 Member

    Messages:
    4,813
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2006
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    you could always just pretend the ii chord isn't there and do whatever you would do over the V chord over the ii chord, too. Or you could pretend the ii chord is a V of the V chord and do what you would do over the V chord, but a fourth below (or a step below, or a half-step above, or a major third above, etc. Bonus points for figuring out how those four resolutions relate to one another).

    Not terribly rocket-scientific, but then again it doesn't always have to be. :)
     
  10. russ6100

    russ6100 Member

    Messages:
    4,111
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Austinrocks wrote:
    Are you saying a natural 9th (in this case, an E) extension on a Dm7 is at all dissonant?

    I guess it's a pretty subjective thing......

    "dissonance is in the ear of the beholder...."
     
  11. Austinrocks

    Austinrocks Member

    Messages:
    7,026
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2007
    really depends on the voicing, if you play it like

    Dm9

    e-0
    b-6
    g-5
    D-7
    A-5
    E-x


    it is tense, the normal way of playing

    e-12
    b-10
    g-10
    d-10
    a-12
    E-10

    not so much


    the min add9 is very tense as well just hard to play on all frets

    Dm add 9

    e-10
    b-10
    g-10
    d-14
    A-12
    E-10

    or

    Dm9

    e-0
    b-6
    g-7
    D-7
    A-5
    E-x


    the Em add9 is one that Clapton uses in Badge, its easy to play and IMO creates a lot of tension

    e-0 or 2
    b-0
    g-0
    d-4
    a-2
    E-0
     
  12. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

    Messages:
    20,304
    Joined:
    May 20, 2003
    Location:
    Home of the ex-world champion Cavs
    Treat the 2 as a Dom7 including alterations. This gives you in the Key of C roughly

    | Ebm | (Dm7) G7 | Cmaj7 | % |
     
  13. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

    Messages:
    32,387
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Location:
    New Jersey
    My favorite Jack. Benson and Wes...add the maj 3rd to the minor II chord and its an alterd Dom 7. (7#9)
     
  14. TonyV

    TonyV Member

    Messages:
    619
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2002
    ii-V-I using D-7|G7|C as an example

    The V of the ii is A7, the bV of the A7 is Eb7
    The ii for the A7 is E-7
    The ii for the Eb7 is Bb-7
    The V of the E-7 is B7
    The bV of G7 is Db7 so you can use that to smooth things out.
    Treat the D-7 as the V of G7, bV sub and you got Ab7


    E-7,Eb7,D-7,Db7,C,B7,Bb-7,A7,Ab7,G

    You can combine these to have smooth chromatic voice leeding lines to the G7 or a sub of the G7 to the I (or a sub for the I). You an reuse dorian, 7th licks, blues licks whatever you know for ii or V.
     
  15. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

    Messages:
    642
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    That's cool, I think one could even do the coltrane changes on the 2-5-1 to give it more depth

     
  16. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

    Messages:
    642
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Mike, that's a revelation - to know that Dm7 combined with G7 yields G9
    Thanks for that. It gives me more theory backing to "ignore" the Dm7

     
  17. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

    Messages:
    642
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    I think to start earlier is fine. But you really have to be a skilled player. I mean if the comper plays Dm7 straight and basss line outlines Dm7, then I guess you just cant plug everything from the V7 wholesale onto Dm7?


     
  18. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

    Messages:
    642
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Jack, mind explaining how to use that??

     
  19. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

    Messages:
    642
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    I just wonder, how is all this theory valid?

    The 2-5-1 chords in the new progression seems not to be in the same order. Please explain if you can! Thank you

     
  20. TonyV

    TonyV Member

    Messages:
    619
    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2002
    I don't mean the chords listed in the last line are a sequence from begin to end to replace a D-7 G7 C. I just meant them as showing the many chords that you can sub to create a moving line.

    Any chord can be proceeded by it's V (or ii-V).
    A bV7 can sub for a V7
    With this you can substitute to create chromatically voice leading lines, you can cycle back to create movement.

    For example
    |E-7 Eb7| D-7 Db7| Cma7|
    |..Eb7 |D-7 Ab7| G7 Db7| Cma7| (the first Eb7 is on the "and" of the previous measure's 4)
    |Bb-7 Eb7||Ab-7 Db7|Cma7|
    |Bb7 A7| Ab7 Db7| Cma7
    |Ab7| Db7| Cma7|

    What is cool for guitar is these subs just lay out so easy on guitar, on sax these are a whole different ball game technique wise.
     

Share This Page