Custom USA built electric guitars around $2K ... is there a market ?

McShred

Member
Messages
2,900
I’m a 42 year old carpenter. My first paid work was for Mike Stevens in my home town of Alpine TX when I was 16. Some people know of Mike but most don’t. He was the luthier who started the Fender Custom Shop. His guitars start at $8K. He is not rich even though he meticulously completes one guitar a week. 8K x 52 weeks = $336K right? Nope. He has significant overhead. He does well but not even close to as well as you’d think. As a carpenter I take in 1/3 of that and upkeep and taxes take 1/2 of what I take in. I’ve considered making instruments too. I’m positive that if I tooled up for it I would make a fine instrument, whatever that may be. But man the sales standpoint would be a full time job for sure. I think a person could do well making two guitars a week @ 4K/week X 52 = $208K. 1/2 at the least would go to overhead especially upon startup leaving $104K which would be a sweet living. But you have to sell 2 guitars a week. And make them.
One guitar a week? That seems high for Michael. I ordered one, a fantastic instrument, and waited a little over 3 years. If he's really churning out 52 guitars a year, he must have one hell of a backlog.

The reason Michael can charge what he does, is his pedigree. The mans skills & contribution to guitar are without question. Anyone else building guitars one at a time with a 3 year backlog would have trouble getting any orders at all.
 

Archman

Member
Messages
23
One guitar a week? That seems high for Michael. I ordered one, a fantastic instrument, and waited a little over 3 years. If he's really churning out 52 guitars a year, he must have one hell of a backlog.

The reason Michael can charge what he does, is his pedigree. The mans skills & contribution to guitar are without question. Anyone else building guitars one at a time with a 3 year backlog would have trouble getting any orders at all.
I guess I left out that that was 1994. He’s in his 70s now. Another thing about Mike is that Probably nobody knows that he had a hand in Collings as well. Maybe not huge but he did a good amount of training the Collings peeps the ways of the spray booth. He also aided in setting up their assembly line and organization. When I lived in Austin I met up with Mike at Collings and he walked me around the whole place and even up into Bills personal shop where he makes his one offs. There were some amazing instruments there.
 

Dave Weir

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
1,273
I think there is a market. You just have to figure out how to expand the market, or take part of it away from someone who is already there.
Design is important, quality will sustain you in the long run, endorsements can kick start the whole operation.
I’ve been doing this part time for about five years with a similar model. It’s been profitable but there are a lot of easier ways to make a living.
I have really low overhead, very efficient manufacturing, and make most of the parts, which keeps my costs low.
I only offer one neck profile, which doesn’t have a letter designation. One pickup, and no electronics options. You get to pick from a few body styles, a few different finishes, and a bunch of wood options. I see myself more like a one man factory than a custom shop, but almost everything is built to order.
Anyway, I would say if you are really into it, give it a go, but don’t quit your day job.
 

peedenmark7

Member
Messages
59
That was Carvin, even Kiesel afterwards raised their prices.

With guitar makers now paying living wages benefits to their employees, there is no quality custom guitar under $5k unless it's a starving luthier.
 

LJOHNS

Member
Messages
783
I think the market is already saturated. With the quality of some of the imports going up and the used market flooded with guitars I don’t see how anyone could make a living at it. Now if it is just a hobby for a builder and you want to break even then I say go for it.
 

ScrapDog

Member
Messages
106
This is an easy one. For LESS than $2000 you can build a world class guitar with parts from Warmoth. Because of their nature, they won't have collector value, but the woods and finishes are FANTASTIC, and once built, they are as good or better than ANYTHING Fender Custom Shop makes, at 1/4 of the price. Win-Win!
Totally agree with you on the value of a Warmoth parts guitar. This noted, my plans are not to offer a basis Strat or Tele guitar in body shape and standard hardware ... rather, I am talking custom milled hardware, custom made pickups, body shape, etc to make it more special or unique without the overall aesthetic being quirky.
 

McShred

Member
Messages
2,900
I guess I left out that that was 1994. He’s in his 70s now. Another thing about Mike is that Probably nobody knows that he had a hand in Collings as well. Maybe not huge but he did a good amount of training the Collings peeps the ways of the spray booth. He also aided in setting up their assembly line and organization. When I lived in Austin I met up with Mike at Collings and he walked me around the whole place and even up into Bills personal shop where he makes his one offs. There were some amazing instruments there.
oh yeah, you can absolutely see Michaels design sensibility in Collings, that leg/thigh cutaway in the back on the lower horn is a dead giveaway.
 

jonnybrn

Member
Messages
4
Interested to learn if there is demand for a 'built in the USA' electric guitar where you, as the customer, would get selectable options for the body color, pickguard material/color (not shape), pickups from selected group of market known boutique pickup builders, and choose between either a maple/maple or maple/rosewood bolt-on neck, and a choice of locking tuners ... all from an interactive website where you could view your potential combinations instantaneously like the 'Mod Shop' of the industry leading brands ... at around $2K - with a case and shipping included.
I am not referencing a typical Fender parts-caster type build, as we all know there are a million of options for this already ... but rather the body profiles would be predetermined but reminiscent of the classic guitar designs - nothing crazy or funky looking - and the key hardware would be custom designed and built, (like the bridge, knobs, etc.,) elevated in quality (not plastic or stamped but machined) ... not stock market parts.

Something a little different from the run of the mill Fender or Gibson ... nothing wild but where one can participate in the design and out come and get above average quality and boutique style, but not have to spend close to $3K or more for this level of customization built in here in America.

Am I alone ? ... Is there a market ???
there is a lot of negatives coming through on this subject related to costs and loss over 10 years time....i am curious if there is a luthier in your area with some credibility to build such an item for you? i know you state custom machining for hardware but the tooling to customize far outweighs the cost of the hardware....i believe the most appropriate is finding build supplies such as bodies and necks (ie warmouth), hardware from already proven manufacturers (ie hipshot) and electronics (ie duncan, fishman, fralin)
and involve your luthier in the build... much more personal and interactive and all choices are truly out there... the argument on established companies and price for used value in resale are retail arguments. i do however love to come across a unicorn in my travels through the guitar universe and the hunt is great history ... good luck
 

ScrapDog

Member
Messages
106
there is a lot of negatives coming through on this subject related to costs and loss over 10 years time....i am curious if there is a luthier in your area with some credibility to build such an item for you? i know you state custom machining for hardware but the tooling to customize far outweighs the cost of the hardware....i believe the most appropriate is finding build supplies such as bodies and necks (ie warmouth), hardware from already proven manufacturers (ie hipshot) and electronics (ie duncan, fishman, fralin)
and involve your luthier in the build... much more personal and interactive and all choices are truly out there... the argument on established companies and price for used value in resale are retail arguments. i do however love to come across a unicorn in my travels through the guitar universe and the hunt is great history ... good luck
Thanks for your comments ... greatly appreciated. Good news is I have a good team with me with resources like CNC machines, etc and many years experience building and finishing guitars. As to tooling hardware ... I should have been clearer ... I am not providing hardware customization. The hardware is not a customizable option in my business platform but my hardware is custom tooled with my signature designs. This way there will be the brand 'personality' in each guitar that is built - not with components selected say from the standard Allparts catalog offering. And yes, it is my mission to hopefully be a 'unicorn in your travels through the guitar universe'.
 

ScrapDog

Member
Messages
106
I think the market is already saturated. With the quality of some of the imports going up and the used market flooded with guitars I don’t see how anyone could make a living at it. Now if it is just a hobby for a builder and you want to break even then I say go for it.
Everything you say is true. But putting aside any concern for making a living at it, would you agree that most of what you are referencing are 'made' guitars that do not provide you the opportunity to select your neck, body color, pickups, etc with options that would give you a guitar that you helped control and lead it's build/outcome so that you have 'skin in the game' and an instrument that is not what everyone has or has abandon for sale as a used guitar that they no longer desired ? This is what I want to know and learn about.
 

webs

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,209
Everything you say is true. But putting aside any concern for making a living at it, would you agree that most of what you are referencing are 'made' guitars that do not provide you the opportunity to select your neck, body color, pickups, etc with options that would give you a guitar that you helped control and lead it's build/outcome so that you have 'skin in the game' and an instrument that is not what everyone has or has abandon for sale as a used guitar that they no longer desired ? This is what I want to know and learn about.
There are so, so many variations available on the used or off-the-rack market that most people can select the neck, body color, and pickups (or change them easily enough) without paying full retail for a brand new pseudo-custom order. If you aren't willing to do the weird and unusual, you are inevitably going to compete with the existing market where products exist to meet common demand. If you're catering to uncommon demands, you'll have to be prepared to offer things that are by definition unpopular.

You're effectively asking a tautological question. Yes, if someone's desire is to have a guitar that they are "invested in" by actively picking out a few options from your limited catalog, then that is something that cannot be provided by the used market. But most people come at the equation from the end, not the means: they want a guitar with features X and Y, and if there's a good chance those are already available, especially used at a nice discount, that will tend to be satisfactory. Ordering a guitar with those same specs may appeal to some, but I suspect most will look at the inevitable price difference and decide that "skin in the game" is not something they need to pay extra for. The primary goal is to have a good guitar; if your first concern is that people have an emotional connection to the instrument by using a virtual building website you're probably starting with the wrong emphasis.

This is why people keep trying to tell you that the quality and reputation of your instruments is going to be the primary factor. What you are trying to sell is a feeling of involvement, which is an intangible luxury of zero consequence if your product isn't something the consumer is already interested in having. Nobody is going to be able to answer any questions about the actual market for guitars of unknown quality, looks, specs, origin, etc. with any real certainty.
 

olejason

Member
Messages
4,116
For all their failings Kiesel has kind of cornered the market in this particular niche. I'd love to see some worthy competition enter the market. It's really hard to do custom or even semi-custom guitars in America at that price point. Kiesel does it by volume, aren't they making something like 4000 guitars/basses a year right now? No one is going to come close to that without a huge investment.

That said there definitely are people building high quality guitars at that price point. The downside is that they usually have wait times that are longer than most people will sit through.
 

ScrapDog

Member
Messages
106
There are so, so many variations available on the used or off-the-rack market that most people can select the neck, body color, and pickups (or change them easily enough) without paying full retail for a brand new pseudo-custom order. If you aren't willing to do the weird and unusual, you are inevitably going to compete with the existing market where products exist to meet common demand. If you're catering to uncommon demands, you'll have to be prepared to offer things that are by definition unpopular.

You're effectively asking a tautological question. Yes, if someone's desire is to have a guitar that they are "invested in" by actively picking out a few options from your limited catalog, then that is something that cannot be provided by the used market. But most people come at the equation from the end, not the means: they want a guitar with features X and Y, and if there's a good chance those are already available, especially used at a nice discount, that will tend to be satisfactory. Ordering a guitar with those same specs may appeal to some, but I suspect most will look at the inevitable price difference and decide that "skin in the game" is not something they need to pay extra for. The primary goal is to have a good guitar; if your first concern is that people have an emotional connection to the instrument by using a virtual building website you're probably starting with the wrong emphasis.

This is why people keep trying to tell you that the quality and reputation of your instruments is going to be the primary factor. What you are trying to sell is a feeling of involvement, which is an intangible luxury of zero consequence if your product isn't something the consumer is already interested in having. Nobody is going to be able to answer any questions about the actual market for guitars of unknown quality, looks, specs, origin, etc. with any real certainty.

Hey, thanks the extended feedback ... appreciated!
And also, thank god someone finally someone used the word 'tautological' in a sentence when replying to my post ... and of course I mean that rhetorically :)

Yes, yes, yes, I agree with you and all the others that have made the same point that there are lots of choices available in the guitar market at all price points ... and yes, people can buy, say a used Strat on Reverb ( they have I think close to 1,000 available now under $600), tweak it out with new pickups, different neck profile, get it stripped and repainted to painted to their liking, etc, etc and after all the investment, at the end of the day, end up with a $600 valued Strat ... these are universal 'givens' that both you and I, and the world, are already very much aware of. So what the heck, let's move to your next point ... more 'familiar' versus more 'out there' ... I am definitely in the more 'familiar' camp ... and this is where I want to play ... and yes, this is a more crowded field, but if the fear of competition was a reason to stop, I wouldn't have even bother to GP post to learn from others on this topic.

"Good Guitars" ??? ... Again, I am confused, as isn't it also a universal truth that, when buying a guitar, everyone has the same primary goal of getting a good guitar ?
As many have pointed out, there are good and bad ones at every price point. I have read on GP of many horror stories stories of those that have gone to the well known builder/brands with established reputations and have spent way more than double the price point I am talking about and have received sub par guitars ... like wise, I have played really expensive guitars that play and sound terrible and cheap ones that sound amazing ... so if we can agree on the afore mentioned - everyone wants a 'good quality guitar' - I would respectfully disagree with you and argue that it is 100% 'EMOTION' that is the motivating factor. I can't imagine buying a guitar the I didn't first and foremost have a very strong 'emotional connection'.
Why does someone pay over $4.5K for the opportunity to select features of a Custom Shop Fender versus getting a custom Mod Shop Fender at $1.8K that, if we are really being honest, doesn't play or sound $2,700 better ... and, with the leftover $2.7K, they could buy 5 'good' playing and sounding Fender Strats on Reverb.
Similarly, why do many GP members most likely own many, many guitars when they only need say one or two to do virtually everything they really need to do to make 'good' music?
Why ? ... because emotionally they want it.
My challenge, from my perspective, is offering a product that first and foremost creates a positive emotional impression ... if not, I won't even get out of the gate, regardless if it is good quality and plays well, and that's for sure!
My belief is that creating 'emotional connections' is the first and most important step to building a reputation that creates enduring success.
 

ScrapDog

Member
Messages
106
I think there is a "desire" for such a product, but unfortunately, there is no resale market for such a thing, and people put a LOT of thought into resellability of items. Everyone wants a custom guitar with all the cool options, but in order to keep the build quality in check, and the profitability higher, you need to standardize parts. Which will lead to "Why don't you offer the XXXXX Tremolo?!?!?" endless questions repeating. Even thinking of myself as a purchaser, I would love a Mexican made Charvel with a baked maple neck... BUT I prefer 22 fret, vintage 6 hole trem, and humbuckers... There is NOTHING in that lineup for me. I could put a similar guitar together from Warmoth parts, but there is always the risk of "not liking the cake once i have baked it" It's pretty rare as I work as a tech and have a pretty standard list of "yes and no" ideas for myself... but even as a tech, who has worked in the industry 20 years, I occasionally think i will LOVE something and it's just "NOPE"

I do have friends who build custom guitars, and I have one that was built for me... but it's a labour of love, you have to love doing it, and just be cool that you will most likely have a modest life, and be willing to either take in repair work, or build cheaper in tough times. The number of builders who make just one appearance at NAMM and die off is pretty significant.

I think your main competition is the large number of companies doing a similar idea, but getting parts made overseas. So they can say "Assembled in the USA" but there aren't enough parts of origin to stamp it "Made in the USA" regardless of whether the quality is on par or lower than American made, you get the "Why do you charge $400 more than Brand X" people

Good luck, keep us updated as to what you end up doing. Despite being a little bit of a negative nelly, I do love to see new companies and new ideas pop up!
Thanks for the feedback ... all is valid ... and thanks for the positive support ... we all are on the quest for the 'holy grail' and I am sure we all have spent much coin in it's pursuit ... and this is what keeps the boutique builders going!
 

webs

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
1,209
"Good Guitars" ??? ... Again, I am confused, as isn't it also a universal truth that, when buying a guitar, everyone has the same primary goal of getting a good guitar ?
As many have pointed out, there are good and bad ones at every price point. I have read on GP of many horror stories stories of those that have gone to the well known builder/brands with established reputations and have spent way more than double the price point I am talking about and have received sub par guitars ... like wise, I have played really expensive guitars that play and sound terrible and cheap ones that sound amazing ... so if we can agree on the afore mentioned - everyone wants a 'good quality guitar' - I would respectfully disagree with you and argue that it is 100% 'EMOTION' that is the motivating factor. I can't imagine buying a guitar the I didn't first and foremost have a very strong 'emotional connection'.
This illustrates the problem nicely. You cannot say that it's a universal truth that the guitar has to be good and then turn around and say that it's "100% 'EMOTION' that is the motivating factor" because that leaves zero percent for the quality of the instrument. See how that's a problem, and why someone might get the impression that you were focusing on the wrong thing re:making guitars? When you say it's a universal truth, do you think that I mentioned an obvious thing because it was simple or because it was complicated? Do you think that there are companies out there that don't realize that a guitar has to be made well? Do you think that the difference between a company that can make a good guitar and a company that can't is that they think that a guitar should be good? It's not about agreeing on facile things. It's that you think it's a foregone conclusion that yours will be good and I have no reason to think that will be the case.

This is why I'm worried. Someone who says something is obvious and can't understand why I bring it up either doesn't understand why it's a problem, or has solved the problem. I'm not saying you haven't solved the problem, but there's zero reason to believe that you have.

Why does someone pay over $4.5K for the opportunity to select features of a Custom Shop Fender versus getting a custom Mod Shop Fender at $1.8K that, if we are really being honest, doesn't play or sound $2,700 better ... and, with the leftover $2.7K, they could buy 5 'good' playing and sounding Fender Strats on Reverb.
The active ingredient here, and the thing you are missing big time is FENDER. Nobody sane goes to the Joe Got A Bandsaw Custom Shop and drops 4 figures for an unknown product; I don't know why you'd expect anyone to do it for half that, either. Fender is a known quantity and if you think that the only difference between Fender and you is that your prices are lower, you have got to stop. It's not about doing it, it's about convincing people you can do it. Fender has spent the last 70 years showing that they make a good guitar. What have you done?

That's exactly why I, if I were a betting person, would bet that you're not in a good place to make this happen. You're hand-waving the hardest part, i.e. making a really good guitar consistently and at a great price, so that you can talk about the part you want to talk about, the ephemeral emotional connection that you're magically going to make through...a website? A small menu of options? If you were asking about how to make a guitar people want first - what neck profiles are most popular, how many colors you'd need to offer, what features are being underserved, what improvements you could bring to the market - then I'd agree that we were on the same page about wanting a good guitar as a first priority. But you're not. You're asking us to assume, and frankly it is not a safe assumption, that you can consistently make an awesome guitar at a great price.
 

LJOHNS

Member
Messages
783
Everything you say is true. But putting aside any concern for making a living at it, would you agree that most of what you are referencing are 'made' guitars that do not provide you the opportunity to select your neck, body color, pickups, etc with options that would give you a guitar that you helped control and lead it's build/outcome so that you have 'skin in the game' and an instrument that is not what everyone has or has abandon for sale as a used guitar that they no longer desired ? This is what I want to know and learn about.
Maybe so. That why I have a couple parts casters. I pick the color, neck, pickups, etc.... I can do that for under a grand myself. I don’t know if a new builder could get that off the ground or not. I personally wouldn’t buy one.
 

BeeTL

Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
773
I consider @dougk to be my unofficial mentor, and he has given you the best, experience-based perspective on your question.

Interestingly, what you're describing is pretty much exactly what I have been tinkering at for the last ten years or so.

Understanding that, if you're looking to do this as a money-making venture, I'd advise against it.

If it's for fun and to scratch an itch, take a run at it.
 

ScrapDog

Member
Messages
106
I consider @dougk to be my unofficial mentor, and he has given you the best, experience-based perspective on your question.

Interestingly, what you're describing is pretty much exactly what I have been tinkering at for the last ten years or so.

Understanding that, if you're looking to do this as a money-making venture, I'd advise against it.

If it's for fun and to scratch an itch, take a run at it.
Hey, thanks for the input and I agree with you that Doug's guitars are great and he has the wisdom and experience better than most to understand this landscape and provide insight ... and his comments were helpful and greatly appreciated. And by the way, your guitars are very cool as well. Lastly, completely understand the difficulty in this type venture and agree that if I was in my 30's with kids to feed and save for college, a mortgage etc, etc ... probably not the best path to pursue.
 

tonedover

This Is Fine.
Platinum Supporting Member
Messages
5,975
Hey, thanks for the input and I agree with you that Doug's guitars are great and he has the wisdom and experience better than most to understand this landscape and provide insight ... and his comments were helpful and greatly appreciated. And by the way, your guitars are very cool as well. Lastly, completely understand the difficulty in this type venture and agree that if I was in my 30's with kids to feed and save for college, a mortgage etc, etc ... probably not the best path to pursue.
having followed the thread and your responses, i just want you to do it asap, so we can openly discuss your designs and options without hamstringing your (potential) IP or style. if its legit USA made, id always consider looking at your offerings,

i wish you well in your endeavor and if you want to cut me a special deal, no matter what shows up, ill shill these slobs like youre the best thing since wound strings lol
 

ScrapDog

Member
Messages
106
This illustrates the problem nicely. You cannot say that it's a universal truth that the guitar has to be good and then turn around and say that it's "100% 'EMOTION' that is the motivating factor" because that leaves zero percent for the quality of the instrument. See how that's a problem, and why someone might get the impression that you were focusing on the wrong thing re:making guitars? When you say it's a universal truth, do you think that I mentioned an obvious thing because it was simple or because it was complicated? Do you think that there are companies out there that don't realize that a guitar has to be made well? Do you think that the difference between a company that can make a good guitar and a company that can't is that they think that a guitar should be good? It's not about agreeing on facile things. It's that you think it's a foregone conclusion that yours will be good and I have no reason to think that will be the case.

This is why I'm worried. Someone who says something is obvious and can't understand why I bring it up either doesn't understand why it's a problem, or has solved the problem. I'm not saying you haven't solved the problem, but there's zero reason to believe that you have.


The active ingredient here, and the thing you are missing big time is FENDER. Nobody sane goes to the Joe Got A Bandsaw Custom Shop and drops 4 figures for an unknown product; I don't know why you'd expect anyone to do it for half that, either. Fender is a known quantity and if you think that the only difference between Fender and you is that your prices are lower, you have got to stop. It's not about doing it, it's about convincing people you can do it. Fender has spent the last 70 years showing that they make a good guitar. What have you done?

That's exactly why I, if I were a betting person, would bet that you're not in a good place to make this happen. You're hand-waving the hardest part, i.e. making a really good guitar consistently and at a great price, so that you can talk about the part you want to talk about, the ephemeral emotional connection that you're magically going to make through...a website? A small menu of options? If you were asking about how to make a guitar people want first - what neck profiles are most popular, how many colors you'd need to offer, what features are being underserved, what improvements you could bring to the market - then I'd agree that we were on the same page about wanting a good guitar as a first priority. But you're not. You're asking us to assume, and frankly it is not a safe assumption, that you can consistently make an awesome guitar at a great price.
Ouch! ... "Joe Got A Bandsaw Custom Shop", "missing big time", "hand-waving" "you have to stop", "what have you done?" ... well, well, someone seems to be a tad sensitive. Hey, no need to be ... it is ok for us not to be in agreement on this. I don't pretend to have all the answers, if I did, I wouldn't have posted the question. At the same time, I think you know you don't either.

My point about 'primary concern is a good guitar' is just simply that this a universal given. Obviously, the guitar has to be well made, play well and sound good. This is a prerequisite before stepping to the plate. I think we both agree on this. And, yes I asked that you make the leap of faith that it is well made, so that I could get a the essence of the question of the market viability at this particular price point. Obviously, I would have prove this to be true, and I fully understand that achieving a 'good guitar' is not easy to do, but that was not my question. Where we differ is that you stated that achieving 'a good guitar' is the paramount factor verses the more superficial and transient 'emotional' elements, where as I believe that good quality is the cost of entry but the emotional factors are much more important for long term success. Again, it is ok for us to disagree on this.

As to Fender ... I think you missed my point - 'double, triple probation big time' (Lol). I was comparing Fender to Fender, not what I would offer compared to Fender. My point was that even within a brand like this, a brand that, as you state, is universally known for quality guitars, I believe it is emotional connections that are the pivotal factor on why someone would choose a $4.5 plus Custom Shop Strat build to a $1.8K Mod Shop Strat build.
Obviously, since my situation is a new initiative, and I don't have Fenders 70 years of heritage to draw upon, it will take time to build a reputation.
My point is, if my guitar and delivery concept don't generate a strong emotional connection ... I am dead in the water, no matter how 'good' the guitar is made ... that's all.

Remember, my question wasn't ... In the Custom Market, is making a 'good guitar' important ?
My question was " Custom USA built electric guitars around $2K ... is there a market ?"
Putting all the other stuff to the side, my take away is you say - only theoretically a possible market as I have described but in practical terms, based on the overall competition in the market, etc., the answer is 'not really' ... and that's cool and I respect your point of view. The other questions you have suggested in the last paragraph of your reply I think are great questions and they were more or less what my follow up questions were going to be ... and I plan to post, once I have clawed and crawled my way out from under the deluge (Lol)
 




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