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Dalbergia Nigra (Brazilian Rosewood) to move to CITES appendix II

ceanat

Member
Messages
651
Thought this is interesting as I read today new conventions for CITES in 20017. It seems all species of true Rosewood will move to appendix II which is less restrictive than appendix I. Whats up there?Would have figured that more Rosewoods would be moving to app 1 if anything. Any opinions or knowledge on this?
 

bluenova

Member
Messages
414
Thought this is interesting as I read today new conventions for CITES in 20017. It seems all species of true Rosewood will move to appendix II which is less restrictive than appendix I. Whats up there?Would have figured that more Rosewoods would be moving to app 1 if anything. Any opinions or knowledge on this?
Source? I've read Brazilian is staying where it's at.
 

HayekFan

Member
Messages
1,526
The new regs say that all 200+ rosewood species (not just the current 50 or so) will be included in appendix II with the exception of Brazilian which will stay in appendix I where it has been since 1992. Appendix I has stricter controls and includes things like ivory.

The species being added to appendix II are currently in neither appendix I nor II so this constitutes a tightening of controls on rosewood. There's also some new verbiage that says appendix II applies not just to logs and boards but also to finished items, which would include things like guitar parts.

That's according to this blurb from NAMM on the subject:

https://www.namm.org/issues-and-adv...liance/cites-update-action-rosewood-has-broad
 

Tony Bones

Member
Messages
1,212
I'm not the expert, so don't ask me to clarify, but basically it means that traveling with a guitar with ANY kind of rosewood fingerboard could theoretically become difficult.
 

Zeppe

Member
Messages
323
That can't be right?

But I have a question for you guys. I have an old Braz dreadnought. What do I need to know if I intend to travel or maybe sell it sometime in the future? Are the rules being inforced?
 

Whitecat

Member
Messages
1,839
I'm not the expert, so don't ask me to clarify, but basically it means that traveling with a guitar with ANY kind of rosewood fingerboard could theoretically become difficult.
Travelling with your guitar in hand is still unrestricted (except for Brazilian) as long as it has "under 20kg of rosewood" (which is to say any guitar I can think of).

Shipping a guitar on the other hand will require papers from Jan 2nd at the earliest. You will need a "pre convention" certificate issued by the CITES authority in your country and you may need an import permit at the destination as well, that's less clear.

I think a lot of secondhand guitars just got consigned to their country of residence... getting the permits costs money and takes time.
 

Surfreak

Member
Messages
2,579
And theoretically it applies to all new production guitars with, say, an IRW fingerboard. It doesn't look economical for guitar factories and builders to secure CITES clearance and papers for every guitar they make that contains Indian, or any kind of, rosewood.
 

K-Line

Vendor
Messages
8,480
And theoretically it applies to all new production guitars with, say, an IRW fingerboard. It doesn't look economical for guitar factories and builders to secure CITES clearance and papers for every guitar they make that contains Indian, or any kind of, rosewood.
It is not as bad as you would think. I have filed for the Master File ($200). Also, I filed to get 6 partial permits for the first 6 months of the year. $5 a piece. One permit per shipment, not per guitar. The receiving dealer or customer will need the import permits if their country requires them. Just a bit of work upfront. Now if you intend to sell one guitar, yes it is a PITA. You have to file for a one time permit ($100), these take anywhere from 45-90 days to obtain. It sucks but it is the law now worldwide, not just a US thing. I am looking into alternative finger boards at this time.
 

Surfreak

Member
Messages
2,579
I am looking into alternative finger boards at this time.
Thanks Chris.

I suspect many other builder will, and that is a shame, for most guitar players are traditionalists, and they will not like this.

As much as most people say that Richlite is a *better* material for fingerboards, I don't want it in my guitars, nor I want tinted maple or other woods that are not commonly used for guitar-making.
 

Guitarworks

Member
Messages
11,031
Pau Ferro/Ironwood, maple, or toasted maple for everyone!...until those come under scrutiny by the authorities. I think a lot of manufacturers and small builders will be looking to ditch rosewood and the cost of using it.
 

Faded

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
4,050
That can't be right?

But I have a question for you guys. I have an old Braz dreadnought. What do I need to know if I intend to travel or maybe sell it sometime in the future? Are the rules being inforced?
The rules are very much enforced. Your market to sell without proper CITES documentation is pretty much limited to whatever country you are in.
 

K-Line

Vendor
Messages
8,480
Pau Ferro/Ironwood, maple, or toasted maple for everyone!...until those come under scrutiny by the authorities. I think a lot of manufacturers and small builders will be looking to ditch rosewood and the cost of using it.
As long as there is supply, rosewood will be standard. The Pau may just be more ideal for the international dealers because it may cost them less time and money in the end. I love Pau as a fingerboard wood. Nice and slick with a nice balanced tone.
 

Carbohydrates

Member
Messages
3,053
This seems like a wrench in the works of all those Japanese dealers trying to sell overpriced rare guitars to us on Ebay.
 

hunter

Silver Supporting Member
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7,900
This seems like a wrench in the works of all those Japanese dealers trying to sell overpriced rare guitars to us on Ebay.
Different compliance culture. I suspect they will just follow the process and get necessary CITES paperwork.

hunter
 

smallbutmighty

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
10,261
It is not as bad as you would think. I have filed for the Master File ($200). Also, I filed to get 6 partial permits for the first 6 months of the year. $5 a piece. One permit per shipment, not per guitar. The receiving dealer or customer will need the import permits if their country requires them. Just a bit of work upfront. Now if you intend to sell one guitar, yes it is a PITA. You have to file for a one time permit ($100), these take anywhere from 45-90 days to obtain. It sucks but it is the law now worldwide, not just a US thing. I am looking into alternative finger boards at this time.
Yep....things will resume to "normal" once the flood of permit applications is handled. The real problem with this whole CITES debacle is that manufacturers/retailers weren't given adequate time/warning to procure the proper permits in a timely fashion, without interrupting their business. Once everyone has the paperwork in place, things will go back to normal, albeit with a slight...um...price adjustment to cover the additional fees and licenses, most likely.

It's still perfectly fine to travel with personal instruments...unless your traveling with a solid rosewood grand piano.

As far as Brazilian Rosewood, it's staying on Appendix I.
 

smallbutmighty

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
10,261
Thanks Chris.

I suspect many other builder will, and that is a shame, for most guitar players are traditionalists, and they will not like this.

As much as most people say that Richlite is a *better* material for fingerboards, I don't want it in my guitars, nor I want tinted maple or other woods that are not commonly used for guitar-making.
I hear what you are saying, and agree with you that guitar players are mostly traditionalists. However, this attitude will have to change. There's just no way around it. Some woods seem sustainable at the moment, but far more species are getting harder and harder to source every year. I only see this going one way as time marches on.

Guitar players of the (near) future are going to have to become more accepting of alternative materials.
 

Tim Plains

Member
Messages
6,140
I predict a lot of future arguments if we go away from traditional woods. Heck, we argue now about fretboards made with different rosewood species, never mind them being made of something else. :rotflmao
 

smallbutmighty

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
10,261
I predict a lot of future arguments if we go away from traditional woods. Heck, we argue now about fretboards made with different rosewood species, never mind them being made of something else. :rotflmao
Please, NO!!! I don't want anything to sully the peace and agreement we all enjoy now! :D
 
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stevieboy

Clouds yell at me
Gold Supporting Member
Messages
38,283
If we go away from traditional woods, it's because there aren't any left, it's not a matter of choice really. The CITES agreements and other steps might hasten that artificially, with the goal of trying to prevent them from all disappearing (a noble goal, I'm not qualified to argue whether it's effective or wisely implemented.)

If people want to play guitar badly enough, they'll go with what's available. Of course, there will lots of used instruments available! I've got a bunch, I'm not going to live forever.
 

Jayyj

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
9,839
This timber supplier I occasionally use has just out together a pdf guide to the new regulations that makes everything pretty clear - just follow the link below and click on the 'read our guide' link: http://www.madinter.com/cites

I've spoken to people at Godin and Martin and they're both saying they've already done the paperwork on shipments going out in January and don't forsee any problems causes by the changes in regulations.

Things don't look so good if you're a small trader or if you simply want to buy a guitar from someone in a different country. From January if I want to buy a guitar from a US dealer, the dealer needs to raise an export permit, then I need to get a copy and forward it along with a request for an import permit in the UK. Each permit takes up to 30 days to approve and has a cost involved although it looks pretty minimal in the UK - still, it's a long time to have your money tied up and no guitar. Whether dealers will be willing to do the paperwork is up to them but I suspect a lot of the smaller guys won't, so options for buying vintage guitars just got a lot more limited for those of us outside the US.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out over the next few months.
 






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