Device Control Strategies: Programming and MIDI and/or SysEx and/or...

Discussion in 'The Rack Space' started by ctreitzell, Sep 19, 2018.

  1. Hallogallo

    Hallogallo Member

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    I don't think you'll anything more than the bluetooth on your phone/ipad and the Yamaha bluetooth adapter.
     
  2. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Hang on...maybe I have misunderstood this Yamaha Bluetooth midi loop...put one on each device and get a wireless network?...essentially virtual cabling?...I gots to look deeper, thanks @Hallogallo :)
     
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  3. Hallogallo

    Hallogallo Member

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    No problemo.
    As I understand it, if you hook the Yamaha and your midi devices up to a midi hub you should be able to control those midi devices via the bluetooth on your ipad/iphone/computer.
     
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  4. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Anyone using Ctrlr VST? Sequencing SysEx is apparently possible....looks like a fair bit of work...I got a little time, gonna give it a go
    http://ctrlr.org/

    They have a Panel for Eventide Orville...er...maybe not, I guess it doesn't work :-/
    http://ctrlr.org/72911-2/
     
  5. JamonGrande

    JamonGrande Supporting Member

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    @Hallogallo, the Yamaha is cited pretty frequently w the Fractal crowd controlling Axefx and Ax8 through Bluetooth midi. For quite a while, I used an iConnect interface as both a wired midi hub, and later in a pseudo-wireless setup :iPad transmitting via WiFi to a Mac plugged into the iConnect. The Mac was a $100 craigslist beater. Expensive compared to the Yamaha route, but allowed for a lot more routing, filtering and control options.

    Joe
     
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  6. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    and that mac is gonna be a bit more bulky than the little Yamaha BT01 for traveling :)
     
  7. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Hey, @Hallowgallo, from what I understand for layout creation with Midi Designer Pro you design layouts using your tablet. With TouchOSC, the layout design UI runs on Java on computer, then upload to tablet. Is that correct for Midi Designer?
     
  8. Coalface1971

    Coalface1971 Member

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    Todd,

    One thing that has annoyed me about MIDI is the serial nature - the last message is the last thing to happen, all other messages close to it are redundant.

    It's AND, not OR/NOR/NAND, and sometimes I'd like both options.

    Say for an example, let's take an old Boss GX700. All of the effects are available via an individual CC for on/off, and that's par for the course.

    Say for simplicity, we want to utilise it in front of the amp for pre gain effects (we know what they are, so I won't bother).

    When any of the effects are engaged, we're happy, but the bypassed tone is a sucker.

    So we decide to put in a MIDI CC controlled loop (GCX/GRX4/RJM/CAE whatever) to bypass the GX700 when none of its effects are selected.

    Now we can do that manually via a master bypass loop on the footcontroller to bypass/enable the GX700. But reckon each time you want to activate or bypass an effect, you'd soon get sick of having to turn on/off the bypass loop (and forget too).

    So, every footcontroller since the Axess FX1 allows multiple messages to be sent from any IA. So sure, every IA switch we assign to the effects blocks in the GX700, we can also assign the same master bypass loop CC# to it as well.

    But no! It won't work, as the MIDI CC controlled loop (GCX/GRX4/RJM/CAE whatever) only listens to the last message.

    If say running two effects, with the footswitch set up that way, only one of the has to be disabled for the loop to be bypassed, regardless that the other effect is still active - the active effect won't keep the loop open, as the last message the loop got was to turn it off simultaneously from the effect that was disabled (AND - or series contacts).

    If it worked in OR/NOR/NAND logic (or parallel contacts), that would be possible.

    I'm sure there is a work-a-round......I just haven't found one practical.

    Chris.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 5:03 AM
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  9. mach90

    mach90 Member

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    I put each unit on a different midi channel. so for example GX700 is on midi channel 1, RJM Loop switcher on midi channel 2

    switch in foot controller send Data on midi channel 1 to GX700 what effects are on off etc, and Midi channel to loop on/bypass

    that way loop switcher only gets one message
     
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  10. Coalface1971

    Coalface1971 Member

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    So do I, mate. I run my rigs on multi-channels.

    But if you have the same CC# (on its own channel) to turn that master loop off assigned to the same instant access switch to bypass the effects block (which too is on a different channel on its own CC#, and has nothing to do with the master loop), any time an effect block is deactivated, the master loop will be bypassed - the last message it gets it a zero value on the CC assign to it.

    I'll respond with the same scenario in more detail tomorrow, GTG....

    Chris.
     
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  11. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    There are clearly so many ways to utilise remote control and you have to jump through the various hoops to arrive at a solution for your applications. Considerations for the different typical modes: programming, performing live or in the studio...or garage...or living room/lounge/salon...or bedroom, or DAW sequencing. Then the added complication of device designs through the eras.

    The beauty of SysEx is that the messages are model specific. An "ignore" command is typically available. Midi bandwidth is clearly a big limitation, which has its workarounds, too, which I don't yet understand.

    Personally, I haven't played live in front of a public audience for many, many years (25 o_O, actually). That said, I, personally, want to bypass menu diving when programming and the ability to sequence to DAWs, and those things are possible with 25 year old units. Each unit has its foibles and strengths.

    If we keep sharing our processes, we can help each other arrive at our solutions for remote control.
     
  12. Hallogallo

    Hallogallo Member

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    I only messed around with TouchOSC for a short period. I'm not all that versed in Midi and didn't find it very intuitive. Once I found MidiDesigner I was hooked and felt like it was not only doing what it should, but teaching me more about midi.
    I think you are correct but I don't actually remember how TouchOsc worked. Your description of MD is spot on. You can also download layouts other users have made from the MD site. With MD, 'supercontrollers' opened up a lot of possibilities for me. I'm not sure if that is something that can be done with TouchOsc as I did not get too deep with it.
    I'm not sure you could save presets with TouchOsc either. I think I needed a sysex program to save the preset on my computer, whereas MD you can save (unlimited?) presets on your tablet.
    Maybe someone with more TouchOsc experience can correct me if I'm wrong about anything?
     
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  13. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    I just meant to clarify if Midi Designer layouts are only created on the tablet or if there is a computer layout editor.
    TouchOSC has an editor on computer, which I feel would be a lot easier to design and customize than on the tablet itself.

    There is no Supercontroller functionality with TouchOSC; a Sysex script would have to be written and I am guessing number of characters would limit any scripting...getting into Lemur territory I would hazard to guess.

    thanks for the response :)
     
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  14. Hallogallo

    Hallogallo Member

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    You are absolutely correct about where layouts are created.
    It's actually fun to make the layouts on the tablet. No computer is actually ever needed.
     
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  15. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Thanks, man :)

    I'll let y'all know how I feel about each process in comparison when I get them both going.
    I really like creating the layout components and copying and pasting sections from "edit" pages from an "editor" version of the layout and then delete the pages I don't require for the actual layouts. Hopefully it is possible to do similar with MD :) Plus, I would greatly prefer to type on a qwerty keyboard as opposed to a virtual keyboard under glass.
     
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  16. mach90

    mach90 Member

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    It doesn't on mine I have
    RJM Amp Gizmo RJM Effectt Gizmo Rocktron Piranah, a custombuilt soldano Clone, Sansamp PSA1.1, ehx 2880, 2x Roland JV1080, BOSS GT Pro, TC Electronics M300, Behringer Virtualizer, Roland RM8 and An Alesis Datadisk
    all being controlled by a Roland FC300 footcontoller. I control the whole lot via midi pc and midi cc messages and have no issues except for the soldano clone which regardless of what midi channel its assigned to the message for it must be last in the list assigned to the individual switch, for everything else as they are all on separate channels they will respond only to midi messages on that channel.
    Note some Midi controlled units have omni and single channel modes. set any that have omni mode to single channel
     
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  17. Coalface1971

    Coalface1971 Member

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    Sorry Mach,

    Not disagreeing at all. You are misunderstanding what I am posting. I have/had CC's, PC's, on Multi channels, sysex and clock flying around on my rigs exactly like you are describing for 15+ years, and haven't experience too many issues either.

    But we're aren't on the same page. I'll try to explain it in another way (I'm a real Luddite can't shoot vids - it would be easier to do).

    Take the loop1 of an old GCX, probably CC#80 on channel 16 (can't remember).

    Grab an instant access capable footcontroller. Program 5 of the instant access to that exact same number (forget about why I would do that at this point - I'm trying to demonstrate a limitation I've come across).

    So 127 is On, 0 is off on CC#80, channel 16 - on all five IA buttons.

    Save that preset with all 5 instant access switches on. Connect the Footcontroller and GCX together via MIDI.

    Fire it all up, and loop 1 will come on. Turn off any one of the 5 instant access switches, and the loop will turn off, regardless of the fact that the other 4 switches are still active on the same CC at level 127, and same channel.

    The inverse will do the opposite - save a preset with those 5 IA's off, fire it up, the loop is off - activate one switch, the loop will activate - again regardless that the other loops on the same channel and same CC, transmitting the zero value are active.

    Reason I have wanted to do this, is to use multi fx in front of the amp. We both know that setting an independent CC# number to each "block" on the units MIDI channel is easy.

    But if I don't want that multi fx in circuit when I'm not using any of the "blocks", I've not come up with a simple solution to bypass and activate a loop I might put it in.

    So to elaborate:

    We have a multi effects with 5 effects block I want to use, CC#'s 1,2,3,4 & 5, on channel 1, 0=off, 127= On (for simplicity).

    I want to put the multi's audio in a bypass loop CC#80, channel 16. Again 0 = off, 127 = on to bypass or enable it when not in use/in use.

    So a scenario, would be to program my IA switches like this ( I have an FX1, MFC101 and GT22 - they are all capable of this in their relative sleep):

    IA Switch 1: CC#1 on Ch1 (effect 1)
    CC#80 on CH16 (bypass/enable loop)

    IA Switch 2: CC#2 on Ch1 (effect 2)
    CC#80 on CH16 (bypass/enable loop)

    IA Switch 3: CC#3 on Ch1 (effect 3)
    CC#80 on CH16 (bypass/enable loop)

    IA Switch 4: CC#4 on Ch1 (effect 4)
    CC#80 on CH16 (bypass/enable loop)

    IA Switch 1: CC#5 on Ch1 (effect 5)
    CC#80 on CH16 (bypass/enable loop).

    So the multi's CC's on CH1 will activate perfectly.

    But the CC#80 Ch16 bypass loop won't. The reason being, every time any of the IA switches is activated, CC#80 on channel 16 will be toggled. The loop will respond to the last message.

    So imagine, if CC#'s 1-5 on CH1 are all active, and I disengage on of them, at the same time the status of the CC#80 on Ch16 will be toggled. So if I wanted to keep the other effects on, I won't hear them as the bypass loop will get toggled to off.

    Hard to explain, but I've been down this road before. There would be work arounds but messy.

    So what I would want is a way to make that CC#80 OR-gate style or parallel data.

    Cheers, sorry for the long post.

    Chris.
     
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  18. mach90

    mach90 Member

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    Ah yes I get what your saying now, in essence there is no feedback to the controller so it has no idea if the loop is on or off before trying to switch it on switching.

    The roland FC has a fairly complex pedal set up which can also send messages on press or release of the switch or leaving that control sequence. So if I have a switch that turns a loop on when moving to another switch the loop is switched off by the footcontroller as it knows I using another.

    So rig has a default state and is always returned to that regardless of which ia I press
     
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  19. toasterdude

    toasterdude Member

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    I am a huge midi fan but am way too tired to follow the tech aspects of the thread today.

    Are we sure the master bypass can accept on or off? I have had nightmares with devices that only understood toggle. So any CC sent flips the state. Line 6 POD HDs were like this. My only work around when having two in my rack was to assign any FX that had to be in a “scene” to the virtual version of their exp pedals.

    Then on my RjM midi controller which was doing 16 “scenes” across 11 devices, add a CC for each EXP on the pods to all 16 “scenes”. For example in one case I had an H9 in the fx loop. Had to leave it on all the time and assign mix to EXP 1 and pot a value of 0 or 127 on each scene. Royal PITA. Replaced the two HDs with a helix rack which has way more midi flexibility. Waaaaay easier.

    Also if you prefer a more tactile alternative to midi designer or touch osc check out Native Instruments Maschine Jam. Lots of sliders, knobs and pads at your disposal. Have mine programmed to do miracles with a vMix based portable video switcher.
     
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  20. Coalface1971

    Coalface1971 Member

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    Thanks Toaster,

    You've explained it more succinctly "I have had nightmares with devices that only understood toggle. So any CC sent flips the state".

    Chris.
     

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