Difficult theory help needed...Maj7 triad off the maj7th of a min7th chord.

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Tag, Feb 23, 2020.

  1. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Agree. That period Miles I cant listen to. Actually, one of a few Miles periods I cant take.

    :D
     
  2. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    One of my fave Miles' periods...
     
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  3. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Hmm, close, but no cigar. Again, the notes in question (bottom to top) are D G C E. No F or B.

    Of course, I understand that cryptic omissions are standard in jazz. But that's exactly what makes such a phrase interesting. It defies an obvious explanation, but could (almost but not quite) fit a few different ones.

    By "interesting", I only mean theoretically. As I said, I don't like the sound of it - except as a piece of entertaining nonsense. A deliberate exercise in "wtf?" I'm sure (at least I hope) that he would find it hilarious that those 4 notes have inspired such a long thread.
     
  4. JonR

    JonR Member

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    You mean the C relative to the following A? That I can appreciate! E-G-C-D obviously works as pure A blues scale! It's just odd that it comes before the chord change.
    I had missed the little quartal hint in the chords before, so it seems more like he was just responding to that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
  5. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Oh come...if you really need a "reason"...
    And Mike Neer, guitarjazz (what's your name anyways?), and I given you one...
    What's the V of C#-? G#7... What's it's tritone sub...D7... What's C/D? D7sus
    And D7susto F#- or A∆... All day long.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
  6. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    I disagree with that Ed. I mean it's possible on paper, but I do not think that's how he got it, and remember Benson uses it a lot. I think Bensons view is definitely the Wes way. C maj, the tritone sub leading to B7, the relative of F#-7. That's as basic as you can get. The most used sub in jazz. Now Garrett could have thought the same thing and just used that quartal voicing, or, as others have said, hes looking at it as related to the upcoming F#-7, and just anticipating it right before the change. So it's just like playing F#-7 a half bar early, but using a related chord up a minor third, in this case it would be A-7, not C maj.
    Like you said earlier, the old diminished relations. He could have used F#-7, A-7, C-7, or Eb-7 just as easily. Both of those approaches are simple, and used all the time. If I would have thought A-7 instead of Cmaj, I would never even had started the thread. I would have seen that minor 3rd connection. Thinking in terms of the maj threw me here, and also not thinking of the family of 4 and the B7 F#-7 relationship, something I live by! I told you I'm losing it!
    :(
     
  7. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    I'm not saying that at all.
    Jon is on the C/D...I can rattle off a few reasons why it works fine...before even pointing out that it just works...
    I'm guessing the issue is that he hears the C/D as C with the 9 in the bass, to me it's a Dsus. I've been down this road too many times...it's the same as the F-6 for G7...the non acceptance of susb9 sounds as perfectly fine for V.
    As I said 4 m6 chords, 4 melodic minor scales...actually 5 but I rather hear the remaining one as harmonic minor. It's all good.


    The most sensible thing is the Quartal Voicings...
    Which btw if they have the 3 on top are the So What chord. And do nicely for a subV...or a ii...or a I...lol

    I already said the way I make sense of it is as it belonging to the extended family of four.
    Or 4x4 or I guess Jack Zuckers Dode... Something something phonics

    And as a side note...all these sub approaches need to work with the original melody as far as I'm concerned... Which if you really want to mess up this discussion goes to D/F# in bar 6 of the head....before returning to the C#-. And before it's A∆7/F# or F#-9 to A∆7#11/F# or F-6/9...did I mention the m6? :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
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  8. dlguitar64

    dlguitar64 Member

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    Bill did a "Jazzgrass" project with Bela Fleck, Sam Bush, Vinnie Colaiuta, Victor Wooten that was interesting. A banjo player from this area who is basically Bela jr. named Ryan Cavanaugh was in his touring band. Ryan emailed McLaughlin and basically said "I'm a bad MFer, check me out" and John agreed and hooked him up with Evans!
     
  9. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    I enjoyed that stuff.

    There's a live gig with Robben Ford on YouTube from about 2010 (IIRC) with that banjo player and they play some of that stuff.
     
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  10. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Hey Richard,
    Yea, I have clip of it from when Zucker figured it out. I will find it on my computer and put it up. It was early on too. Cant remember which tune but I have it. Good to see you posting again and hope all is well down there.
    :beer
     
  11. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    @comealongway

    Rich,
    Right at 1:02 in this oldie but goodie. I think I put this up years ago and you were in the thread. Zucker figured it the same way I did, "Play a major triad off the 7th degree of a Dom7 chord". In this case, off the flat V sub. That would mean he played II7-V7alt-i going to the minor 4 chord. Benson uses that ALL the time which I am surprised you seem unaware of. Peter Farrell goes into it and gives some examples, and there is a guy on you tube who transcribes Bensons stella by starlight solo where he plays it, and the guy is stumped to explain it. Lol! Benson plays ALL that stuff my man, the difference is he does it with SOUL!!
    :beer


     
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  12. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    Maj triad off the b7 of a dom7 chord is just going to give you a V11 thing, right?
     
  13. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Off the V yes. It's doing it off the tritone sub where it gets fun! :eek: That gives you the Maj triad off the 7th of a minor7 chord!
    IOW, over C-7, G7 is the V, Db the tri tone sub.
    Now play a maj7 arp off the 7th of Db7 and look how it lines up!
    :eek:
     
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  14. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    I saw that tour live in NY with member MCDADDY. ..... That banjo player walked over everyone! He was on FIRE!!
     
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  15. Bluesful

    Bluesful Supporting Member

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    I find it easier to just think a maj7 arp off the maj 3rd of the V then, rather than off the b7 of the tritone sub.

    I like a dim7 arp off the maj 3rd of the V to give a 7b9.

    Jealous.

    We just don't get shows like that down here.

    Although I do get to see Pat Metheny next week.
     
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  16. Tag

    Tag Gold Supporting Member

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    Double thinking. Whatever is easiest for you.
    You see though these are all cliche bop licks.
    When you have all these different Dom 7 licks and lines, you do not want to start thinking of them from different notes. It's just Dom 7 licks! In C- you play them over Gdom7 or Db dom 7. That's it! Same with all the altered scale stuff. Over G7, you just play all your Ab-7 lines and licks. That's it! The same lines and licks you play over a static Abminor7 chord, you now play but just resolve them to Cminor.
    That is IT. That's why you need a good vocabulary of minor, major and dominant7 licks and you can get through almost ac anything, harmonically speaking. It's all the SAME stuff, and its ALL been done decades ago.
     
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  17. fenderlead

    fenderlead Member

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    It's probably a quartal thing, but the backdoor chords also go in 4ths.

    D -> G -> C (can be put in because of ii V I) -> E (5th of A or b7th of F#m and also 3rd of C).

    Dm7->G7->C->A(F#m)

    The usual backdoor is probably Dm7->G7->A

    There is no real need to play the F or B notes (or all of the notes of Dm7 G7 C) but they might be played in another phrase maybe.

    If someone thinks backdoor then it's a lot simpler.

    Start with the backdoor root Dm7 -> D and then follow the root notes through the backdoor and it ends up in 4ths and then resolve to a 3rd (the C chords E note that also happens to be the A chord's 5th or the F#m7 chord's b7th).

    D -> G -> C -> E

    C#m7 (Dm7 G7 C) F#m7, interesting sounds for a minor blues especially when arpeggiated, has a sliding outside sort of thing to it.

    The main thing is the resolve points or landing on your feet, all of the rest can be be in transition no matter what it is, especially when heading into a resolve point (thinking ahead), chromatic, m3rd movement, quartal whatever, if the resolve points are too scarce then the listener might not be able to make much of it.

    Bill Evans was basically playing a resolving game that was a bit different to the resolving in Bop and Bill listened to more modern classical ie Debussy which has that element in it.

     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2020
  18. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    It is a Quartal Thing...
    D7sus to C#-m7sus it's nothing but subV-i with Quartal harmony
    To jump off on what guitarjazz said....
    E--x--x--
    B--5--5-
    G--5--4-
    D--5--4-
    A--5--4-
    E--x--x--
     
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  19. fenderlead

    fenderlead Member

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    Benson probably got it off of Coltrane who probably got it off Bill Evans who probably got it off Debussy.

    The influence of modern Classical on Jazz.

    The 3rd on top is just a twist on it.

    I think there is an interview with Benson mentioning getting quartal things off of Coltrane as well as sheets of sound.
     
  20. StevenA

    StevenA Member

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    Jack Zuckers Dodecaphonics:
    All the below arps sub for each other
    (Harmonized maj scale shown, same for melodic, harmonic, and harmonic major scales)
    Cmaj7 dm7 em7 Fmaj7 G7 am7 bø
    Ebma7 fm7 gm7 Abma7 Bb7 cm7 dø
    F#ma7 g#m7 bbm7 Bma7 C#7 d#m7 fø
    Ama7 bm7 c#m7 Dma7 E7 f#m7 g#ø
     
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