DigiTech GSP2101 Appreciation

Discussion in 'The Rack Space' started by ctreitzell, Sep 2, 2018.

  1. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    @Dubvibe , bro! gotta change that battery! I actually struggled a bit to install the new battery. Getting the old one out was cake, but putting the new one in:confused:...it's in a tricky position to access.

    Updating to new firmware requires purchasing and installing some EPROMs.
    When you first power on your 2101, the startup screen shows the firmware.
     
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  2. Dubvibe

    Dubvibe Member

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    For me it was just a handy little tube pre that sounded great and had some cool fx for those moments when they were needed. I never bothered tinkering under the hood too much. Reading these posts has shown me just how much more there was to the unit that I never used. The thing that gets me is that when I try and find a suitable replacement 20 years later I'm coming up blank. I might just find another 2nd hand 2101 and this time actually spend the time understanding it lol
     
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  3. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Hmmm, worth a try.

    See, I have changed my approach from MIDI Program Change mentality. I set up toggles and try to be clever with CCs and there is ZERO need to change programs...which equals no latency and no full program load dropout when changing programs cuz you don't change full programs nearly as often. This method is a workaround because GSP2101 is old tech and not capable of/ not designed considering hi res 14 bit nrpn midi CC.

    Here are a couple toggle scenarios I have going on in my 2101:

    FC in a stompbox fashion using toggles,
    for example (using Control One/ GSP2101 FC):
    Link 1 set to Chorus Level Links to Footswitch 6 > Min=0/ Max=90
    Link 2 set to Chorus Depth Links to FS 7 > Min=3.00ms/ Max= 8.25ms
    Link 3 set to Distrt (On/Off) Links to FS 3 > Min=off/ Max= on (my 2101 says Min=VaMVol ass/ /Max= Va10 On)
    Link 4 set to Gain2 Links to FS 4 > Min= 3.0/ Max= 8.3
    Link 5 set to Flange Level Links to FS1 > Min=0/ Max=80
    Link 6 set to Flange Regen Links to FS 2 > Min=0% / Max= -75%
    Link 7 set to GigaVerb Level Links to FS 10 > Min=0/ Max=80
    Link 8 set to GigaVerb Size Links to FS 9 > Min=3/ Max=7

    You get the picture, still 2 Links left to work with. I don't know if this is possible with firmware preceding 3.00.00.a
    Before I updated my firmware last year, I never thought to use the 2101 like this.

    You can also set up a multi loop scenario with toggles and Delays. You'd have to build an algorithm for it.
    I have done it like this using delays because I find it easier than using the 2101 Sampler modules.
    This algo is using 1x 500ms Delay; 2x 1sec Delay; 1x 2sec Delay all mixed in parallel with 4 loops possible:
    Link 1 set to Dly "Dly0.5" Links to Footswitch 1 > Min=Off/ Max=On
    Link 2 set to Dly "RptHld" Links to FS 6 > Min=Off/ Max=Hold
    Link 3 set to Dly1 "Dly1.0" Links to FS 2 > Min=Off/ Max=On
    Link 4 set to Dly1 "RptHld" Links to FS 7 > Min=Off/ Max=Hold
    Link 5 set to Dly1 "Dly1.0" Links to FS 3 > Min=Off/ Max=On
    Link 6 set to Dly1 "RptHld" Links to FS 8 > Min=Off/ Max=Hold
    Link 7 set to Dly2 "Dly1.0" Links to FS 4 > Min=Off/ Max=On
    Link 8 set to Dly2 "RptHld" Links to FS 9 > Min=Off/ Max=Hold
    Link 9 set to Distrt (On/Off) Links to FS 5 > Min=off/ Max= on (my 2101 says Min=VaMVol ass/ /Max= Va10 On)
    Link 10 /0 set to Gain2Links Links to FS 10 (or 0) > Min= 3.0/ Max= 8.3

    Now, with looper, you don't get to save anything and reload it; accidentally turn off a Hold and the loop will be altered or easily lost forever, same if you change programs. Also, FC labelling is the big problem here; lighted LCD/LED displays showing you what is where like an RJM Mastermind would be swell...nevertheless it will work with Control One/ GSP2101 FC....and probably a Johnson J12 :). I don't know if an Art X-15 will do the toggles.

    If you need full program changes, Dual SDisc is "capable" of spillover. I am doing the same thing with CyberTwins, but that is a touch more complicated because CyberTwin menu diving with OSC is achieved with SysEx.

    Like I have said many times, this way of manipulating CCs, especially alongside a tablet running an OSC app or a desktop midi controller is a whole different way of remote control and will have you no longer dreaming of growing wings so you can defy gravity to push all those buttons for MIDI PC (program change) .

    The other thing to note is: I have read the TSR24s has 30 MIDI CCs rather than the GSP2101's 10; 20 Global and 10 Local. The manual says TSR24s Local CCs are Program specific and Global CCs are active all the time, regardless of which Program is loaded. Global CCs on TSR24 cannot be range limited (no adjustments to min / max? or designed to be continuosly controlled only? I don't know) Obviously, the Control One / GSP2101 (and many others) FC "only" have 10 toggle-able buttons. Even so, the extra CCs are something I been interested in having on the 2101 for sequencer and OSC purposes. Also, TSR24s has even bigger Reverbs than GigaVerb; there is ExaVerb and VeraVerb :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  4. OldSchoolFool

    OldSchoolFool Member

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    Got my 11 rack. It doesn't have the latest upgrade expansion yet, and I didn't get to mess with it much, but a few ideas i have would be this...

    1.
    Guitar > 11r >11r fx send > 2101 input >2101 fx send >11r fx return. Then, 11r > Hafler Pwr Amp > 4x12.

    Or
    2.
    Guitar >2101 input >2101 fx send >11r input(or 11r line input), 11r > pwr amp > 4x12.

    Or
    3.
    Guitar > 2101 input > 2101 fx send >11r input(or 11r line input or 11r fx return), 11r fx send > 2101 fx return > 2101 > pwr amp.

    The second option would set up the 2101 as an analog preamp signal that could then be processed by the 11r. This is probably the best option as i could still use the 2101 stand alone or the 11r stand alone. Just need an a way to switch outputs like an A/B switcher.

    The 3rd option would treat the 11r as an effects unit.

    In any case, i don't know enough about the 11 rack yet to make any educated decisions on how to use it.


    3a. It's a purple haze (purple faceplate dual s-disc) edition with all upgrades. Looks mint.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018 at 12:03 PM
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  5. Technica

    Technica Member

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    Of course I need to get on this thread, being a huge 2101 fan.

    I’ve said many times that the 2101 is not only Digitech’s very best preamp/processor, but that it’s extremely underrated. I think most people these days dismiss it because of its age, as well as the complexity of its programming.

    The later 2112/2120 units were far easier to program and I loved the dual distortion path capability, but the 2101 has far more comprehensive routing options. It was the very first unit that not only allowed you to arrange effects in any order, but also allowed the user to duplicate as many effects in the chain as the DSP would permit. It was far ahead of its time. And has has been stated here, Gigaverb is, in my opinion, still the best reverb I’ve ever heard, from any unit. The same goes for the modulation effects. Digitech always did reverb and chorus so incredibly well.

    The only real downside to the 2101 is how difficult it can be to program for some users, especially users that are used to modern processors with fancy graphics and computer editors. It’s not actually hard to program, but any 2101 user will agree that it does take time. Digitech even supplied blank flow charts to aid in the process.

    Another great thing about the 2101 is its speaker emulator. It is as good as any other analog speaker sim I’ve ever heard. The downside is that it’s only available through the XLR outputs, which I suppose won’t be an issue for most users. The later firmware versions also added more programmability to it. The 2112/2120 also had speaker sim options, but this was a DSP implementation, and it doesn’t even come close to the speaker sim on the 2101. As a matter of fact, it was so bad on the 2112/2120 that when I first tried one, I had to make sure that the speaker sim was even engaged. The 2112 and 2120 also don’t even have XLR outputs, which always puzzled me as to why Digitech removed them. They’re fantastic units for sure, but I always felt that the 2101 was superior in both digital and analog effects and preamp tones.

    Check out the prices on those things these days - they’re beginning to fetch some really high prices now, and if you can even find the PPC S-DISC upgrade card they sell for over $200. I was very fortunate to find a never used, completely NOS and in the box 2101 as well as a PPC. It took me a long time of searching before one turned up. I will never ever part with those.

    The really cool ones are the Limited Edition units, which already had the PPC installed. The rarest variant of the 2101 is the Artist Pro, which had the chrome faceplate and was fully upgraded with the 3.0.0 firmware and the PPC upgrade card from the factory. Those were a Guitar Center exclusive in 1996 and were the very last to be made, since Digitech was already in production of the 2112 at the time and was just clearing out whatever components remained of the 2101.

    If you are looking to buy one of those Limited Edition or Artist Pro units, make sure you ask the seller for a photo of its insides, because since the PPC began selling for very high prices on its own, I’ve been seeing these LE 2101 units missing the PPC, very likely because the seller removed it and sold it separately.
     
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  6. OldSchoolFool

    OldSchoolFool Member

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    So, the 11 rack allows you to go in and change which input you want to use as the main input.

    For instance, I was able to connect the 2101 to the 11 rack using an XLR cable by going into the 11rack input settings and simply select mic input. This puts the xlr input at the front of the signal chain in the 11rack. Just turn the mic input all the way down, enable the pad and set the 2101 output to 12 o'clock. Now you have a very clean pristine signal from the 2101 (with speaker compensator) running into the 11 rack. It sounds really good to me, making it so even the factory programs are amazing to play with.

    The 11 rack only uses the input you select in the settings. So, for example, you can leave the 2101 connected with an XLR to the 11r, and the effects send into the 11r Line In at the same time. This would still leave you other connections available too for harmonizers, stomp boxes, etc. And keep in mind the 11r allows direct to digital recording and re-amping in pro tools.

    I've only had about an hour to play around and skim the 11 rack manual but it is starting to look like the perfect modern compliment to the 2101.
     
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  7. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Oh boy, the Line Level vrs Mic Level chestnut :-/
    Personally, I'm sticking to line level.

    What are you monitoring through?

    Harmonizers and stompboxes? from which device? other external devices?

    That's cool the 11R is working for you :)
     
  8. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    I think limited storage is an issue, too. The mixers can be tricky to understand, particularly the way the users manual is written. The manual's provided algorithm diagrams could be better designed, too.

    GigaVerb is pretty nice. It might be the best reverb you've ever had at your disposal (me too) and yet you and others like us might be coerced into reframing our opinions if we were using a mint condition Lexicon 200 or PCM series. I wonder how well the more involved reverbs (ExaVerb and VeraVerb) on the TSR24 stack up to GigaVerb. Personally, I would like finer control for many parameters than the many stepped parameter "ranges" on the GSP2101. GSP2101 is "designed for" guitar and that can be quite a limiting factor, especially for real time CC.

    I used to be confused by programming the 2101. Now that I have been studying it, it has become much clearer. Using Martin Ecker's GSP 2101 Algorithm Editor program is very useful for designing algorithms, albeit only capable of single SDisc module routings per document. You can open up multiple algorithm documents in a single session. I have been creating 2 different files for each SDisc for my Dual routings and using screen shots to complete the routings in power point or ms paint. Then, you follow your diagram to create the actual algorithm in your 2101 unit.

    The really confusing thing once you have created your algorithm is identifying what is where on mixers that have no labelling. The mixers really do become a bit of a mystery crap shoot if you have a lot of channels. The only way I have been able to keep reasonable track of what is going where is using my diagrams created as described.

    My latest algorithm has 6x 500ms 4 Tap delay modules with all the outs in parallel on a single SDisc. That requires a 16x2, a 8x2 and a 5x2 mixer (a different selection of modules would be over SDisc memory/cpu). Knowing what goes where and panned how is complicated.

    Further, when linking algorithms with multiples of the same module, the 2101 only gives a special character (A, B, C, D) to the first four modules when linking the routing. Actually, I haven't yet successfully programmed this algo so I don't know if it is possible....I will post it once I am sure it can be programmed.

    Bottom line, if you want to go beyond simple, you will probably require some other method to keep track of your designs. For plug and play types, this isn't gonna fly.

    This I did not know, thanks for that! I do use the 2101 xlr outs for direct recording and it does sound pretty good, especially for cleans.

    Your find is fantastic. I got a similar deal on my GSP2101 FC which was essentially brand new, unused in a battered box. Yep, I reckon my PPC210 upgrade last year, (winter 2017) cost closer to 300 than 200 currency units when all was said and done, and I am just a few hundred miles away from Dieter! If you don't know, a chip puller tool is required to add the second SDisc. I didn't know until the the PPC2101 arrived and I then had to wait another few days to order a chip puller. I don't know about pricing, it is pretty stable between 200 and 500 currency units....most single disc Studio Tubes going for about 350. Often I see LEs going for about the same, and they get snapped up pretty quick ( maybe I should delete that ;-)

    I'd love to get my hands on a mint Cozmik Blue LE...obviously no one is selling that. I didn't know about the GC exclusive. Those chrome faceplates always seem to be overpriced.

    This is great advice, yo. There was a scenario exactly as you describe last month. There was a pristine Artist Pro (grey) Dual from Japan that sold vey quickly and another Artist Pro that looked very similar yet was a bit beat up with a single disc. Also, you can see an old Reverb listing with a Gold LE where photos inside show a single PPC. You gotta know what you are looking for.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018 at 9:31 AM
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  9. OldSchoolFool

    OldSchoolFool Member

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    The 11r mic input has a 20db pad and level adjustment. It also has phantom power. The 2101 xlr outs are safe from phantom power and are line level. Can't remember if they are +4 or not. Anyway, this should mean the 2101 xlr outs are essentially a di box. So, unless I'm confused, a mic pre with variable input control, phantom off, and a 20 to 40db pad should work fine. The 11r meets this scenario.
    A seperate stereo to mono DI box would be ideal. Then you could get the unity gain matched perfectly and have the built in analog cab sim available.

    If you don't want to use the cab sim on the 2101 then you can just run the 1/4 stereo outs to the 1/4 line ins on the 11r. Which I'll try out this weekend.

    A Peavey 4x12ms that has wiring issues. So it doesn't sound half as good as it should. And yeah, i know the cab sim on the 2101 should be off, but i think it sounds better enabled through my 4x12. That could be because of the wiring issues though.

    Later, I'll try my powered studio monitors.

    I have a digitech dhp 33 (the ips33b successor) so i had the idea of running it through the effects loop of the 2101 into an input of the 11rack. I could just stick it in the effects loop of the 11r or the 2101, but the issue is that the 33 doesn't have a true bypass and tracking works best if it's in the front of the signal chain. But if you plug your guitar strait into it, even the bypass colors the sound.

    It would probably be easier to just buy a midi controllable patch bay type A/B device.

    I'm half asleep and on my phone so i apologize if none of this made any sense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018 at 2:07 PM
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  10. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Thanks for filling in the gaps

    It all makes sense...my intention isn't to be a nosy or pushy...just curious :)
     
  11. OldSchoolFool

    OldSchoolFool Member

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    I've been fighting a medussa of cables all day, but this is kinda fun.

    #updated#
    Guitar > 2101.
    2101 stereo outs > 11rack stereo line ins.
    11rack stereo amp output to power amp.

    This leaves the effects loops on both units free so i can still bypass the converters on the 2101, which i did, by adding fx send of the 2101 to the effects return of the 11rack. Then move the effects module on the 11 rack too the front and 100% wet.

    Using 2101 clean tube with distortion models of the 11 rack can make for some nice sounds. And all this can be recorded direct to digital through the 11 rack. And ofcourse you can hit bypass on the 2101 and just use the 11 rack.

    On top of this, you can leave the xlr from the 2101 (looking into a DI box) connected to the 11rack, or eternal pre, and direct record the 2101 only with the 2101 cab sim. Alternately, you can bypass all effects on the 11 rack and also record the 2101 direct with the line ins.

    It's freaking amazing!
    If i can figure out a way to use my harmonizer with everything else hooked up like this I'd be in heaven.

    I'm sure there are other/better ways to connect everything but I'm not an electrician or sound engineer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018 at 12:00 AM
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  12. Technica

    Technica Member

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    I also use an 11R with my 2101. There’s a video on YouTube where the guitarist recorded using an 11R and a 2101, each panned hard left and right. Here’s that video.


     
  13. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Wonderful! I'd love to have one
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018 at 10:16 AM
  14. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Ugh, or not...2101 soft reset resets all the utilities :bonk
    not the most clever idea, digitech! That's what I DON'T want to do. Fender Cyber Twin is way smarter here: dump to and from of only the UTILITY section is possible without disturbing progs. 2101 hard reset is going to burn all my UTILITY and MIDI settings :facepalm:horse
    hopefully I am wrong...here goes
     
  15. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Yep, I am wrong. You can either reset all progs and algos to factory and UTILITY and MIDI settings are unaffected.
     
  16. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Well I spent the day today and some of yesterday figuring out how to track my 2101 Programming beyond SysEx (Excel). Anyhow, I got that figured out.

    My main purpose once I got everything backed up is investigating maximum delay taps possible on GSP2101.
    Well, you can "design" it in Digitech GSP2101 Algorithm Editor, but so far I can't get 24 or 23 taps on a single SDisc so far. I did not do a hard reset, maybe that will help, I don't know.

    I started with this. When linking this routing, only the first four identical modules have a letter designation to differentiate them; A, B, C, D. Then the 5th and 6th instances have an underscore instead of special character (letter). I thought that was the problem. I tried this algo several times, multiple resets. You can build it and link the routing, but it will not save:
    [​IMG]

    So I thought the underscored modules might be the issue, so I tried, which yields a longer delays on one 4T module:
    [​IMG]

    And then I tried 23 taps:
    [​IMG]

    but I could not get any of these to save; you can add the modules and link, but it won't save. I am pretty sure 20 tap works...I will keep testing and find out :)
     
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  17. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    Ok Continuing with max taps possible on a single SDisc today.

    Up to 23 Taps parallel is possible on a single SDisc. 23 is not possible as a Dual with the mixers as I have them. I will try a different mixer config with only 2 mixers and see where the line is.

    22 Taps will work with Dual possibility so definitely 44 and maybe 45 Taps in a Dual...
     
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  18. ctreitzell

    ctreitzell Member

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    So, Max taps on 2101 cont'd. Turns out it is obviously the number of bytes that decides what will save on the 2101 and what won't save. The lack of special characters or use of underscores to differentiate like modules doesn't affect whether the algo can be saved or not as far as I can tell.

    24 Taps I have confirmed possible on a single SDisc with enough mixer inputs left over to route 2 outputs from SDisc2. I haven't tried it yet, but it may be possible to realize 48 taps with a Dual algo.

    Switching to 2 mixer modules down from 3 mixer modules allows a 14022 Byte algorithm that will save on the 2101. Here is the routing:
    [​IMG]

    25 Taps I was unable to attain. The largest algo I had today was a 23Tap that was 14502 Bytes which was the max taps I could get with 3 mixers. Looks like this:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018 at 7:11 PM
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  19. Technica

    Technica Member

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    It would really be cool to have some group here or post where we can assemble all of our 2101 tips and programming techniques. I feel that in most cases, users had probably never used it to is full potential, and probably didn’t even realize how powerful it is. Having everything localized in one spot will really be helpful.

    Every time I use a 2101 I continue to marvel at how far ahead of its time it was. That unit is 25 years old, and in digital terms it’s a relic, but I feel it is also unique even today, and good tone is good tone - and good tone doesn’t age.
     
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  20. Chris@TGP

    Chris@TGP Supporting Member

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    Still have mine from back in the day. Plugged it in the other day and actually got a few really good sounds. Fun box!
     
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