Do you find the Kemper lacks a bit when crafting your own sound

Discussion in 'Digital & Modeling Gear' started by Imran5000, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2016
    So that clip I posted...the tweaked tones...that's representative of "the overall tone inherent to the Kemper"? Not trying to be a prick, just want to know what it is that folks are hearing that I'm not.
     
  2. Frank67

    Frank67 Member

    Messages:
    482
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    I once did a fairly scientific test of that. I profiled my amp (Twin Reverb) in the room, then recorded by going:

    Guitar -> pedalboard -> split signal one goes into the amp with the exact mic used for profiling in the exact same spot of the exact same room with the exact same da settings. The other goes into the Kemper.

    I recorded some snippets of all kind of pedals from clean to heavily overdriven and recorded both outputs simultaneously to make sure there is no issue with playing differently into the amp or the Kemper.

    I personally cannot hear a difference and concluded that the Kemper takes pedals in very nearly the same way as the amp.

    My video is on YouTube ... some people seem to like it, some seem to hate it. I am not a great player ... but for the subject at hand, I believe that the test is conclusive.
     
  3. Jimmy_Rage

    Jimmy_Rage Member

    Messages:
    1,093
    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2009
    Kemper Amps at one point hinted we'd get user definable stacks. They have a long development pipeline and the biggest plus of this six or seven year old device is that they have not abandoned it.

    Some of us have been asking for the ability to blend profiles, such as an amp at lower and then at higher gain, or even two distinct clean and dirty amps.

    Heck, it doesn't have to be within the Kemper, if they can write up a software that would blend them on my computer, I would be satisfied.

    To be sure, the company isn't targeting low hanging fruit imho. We got amazing new delays and now we're getting new reverbs (the spring reverb they previewed is amazing).

    Basically, we can only hope that the assimilation of features common in most modellers is possible with the current iteration of the device. Or that it is even a priority for the company.

    It is a very different technology, though personally I think of it as a modeller and profiling as the process through which it creates models.
     
    Imran5000 likes this.
  4. Danzego

    Danzego Member

    Messages:
    305
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    So what you’re suggesting is that if I go to any given profile on my Kemper unit and start tweaking tone knobs, it’s going to react similar to how the actual amp would?

    Given how the Profiler works, I’m not even sure how that’s possible.
     
  5. Danzego

    Danzego Member

    Messages:
    305
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    I don’t sense that you’re being a prick at all. It’s all good. :)

    I listened to your clip on my iPhone.....like as in the speakers. Definitely not an optimal experience, so I’m not going to speak specifically on the quality of the sound. What I can tell you is that they definitely sound different from each other, which is certainly proof that tweaking a profile too far is going to take the profile away from what it’s supposed to sound like in terms of the original amp. Now, I may be making an assumption, but most people don’t tend to want that when spending over 2 grand on a profiler with the draw being that profiles are supposed to sound nearly indistinguishable to specific amps.

    This phenomenon is something unnoticed when I first got my own Kemper a few years ago. I did t know that one should go light on the EQ and Gain tweaking. Before long at all, I was getting the sense that a lot of these different profiles of what I knew to be very different amp models had a certain “sameness” to them. Mind you, they didn’t sound BAD, but the Kemper was definitely at work there.

    That’s not what I or (again, assuming) most people buy a $2,000+ profiler for.
     
  6. yeky83

    yeky83 Member

    Messages:
    1,442
    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2007
    Yup, this is partly why I sold my Kemper. Have you used other modelers?
    Well, you can't admit you used it wrong and then blame the unit.
     
  7. Danzego

    Danzego Member

    Messages:
    305
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    1) Yes, I’ve used several modeling devices over the years. I’ve owned a GNX3, a Vox Tonelab, a couple of Fender Mustangs, a Vox Valvetronic amp, several software based modelers, an HX Stomp, and whatever other modelers I’ve used that I’m not recalling at this moment.

    2) If using a tone knob that goes from 1-10 on a profile is “using it wrong”, then why was the unit built with such capability in the first place? Why hasn’t it been patched out?

    I think it’s clear the idea here pertains to limitations inherent to a specific design, which is precisely what that is; not “using it wrong”. If that was using it wrong, they wouldn’t be there in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    yeky83 likes this.
  8. Jose7822

    Jose7822 Member

    Messages:
    1,849
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2015
    That’s not a very good argument.

    You could say the same about most amps, pedals, effects, you-name-it. Like, “why did (insert manufacturer) put a Gain knob, or a Bass knob, etc that goes from 0 to 10 if it’s gonna sound bad at those extremes?” And then, when they do limit the range, “these knobs don’t do anything. WTF?”

    As the famous saying goes, “with great power, comes great responsibility”. ;)
     
    Ingolf and Lord N like this.
  9. Guavadude

    Guavadude Member

    Messages:
    125
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2010
    Location:
    Grapevine, TX
    What was the question? Are you trying to craft YOUR sound or just mod a profile into something you like better?
    I think the tone controls are great and have a nice wide range of useable sounds. If every amp I ever used had those tone controls on it I’d be pretty happy. They are also fairly forgiving in range.
    The gain control can start to make every profile sound the same but a small adjustment can help if needed.

    To me, a lot of the deeper parameters in the Stack seem to do too much or not enough. The Definition is way too coarse and a very small movement can go too far. This should be like a subtle Tilt Eq and less parametric sounding. Some of the other parameters like sag, clarity, pick, tube bias...I can’t tell what they’re doing. I’m a guitar player, if I can’t hear what the knob does, it shouldn’t be there. I don’t want to turn a knob ten times trying to decide which way is better.

    The Kemper can sound great but adding the complexity of a recording chain can result in some pretty terrible sounds too. If you know how to record and have good ears for tweaking, then yes, it will go wherever you point it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    Ingolf and Danzego like this.
  10. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2016
    I have conceded like fifteen times that as you tweak the tone knobs etc., the profile will not necessarily sound like the amp profiled anymore. The goal of my clips wasn't to get them to sound the same. I don't care if it no longer sounds like the amp profiled as I tweak tone knobs. I just want it to continue to sound like A guitar amp, not necessarily THE guitar amp. While one can certainly make things sound unnatural, but that's user error, since one can also tweak a profile far away from it's original sound and still get it to sound like a guitar amp, not some digital fake.
     
    Ingolf and yeky83 like this.
  11. Lord N

    Lord N Member

    Messages:
    1,297
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    That is not different to other modelers or real amps. Almost all amps sound **** when you turn the bass or treble up to 10. Or the gain.
    And why would you patch it out? Some people might actually like it if the sound isn't "real". I mean there are whole genres revolving around weird guitar tones.

    I think that if you stray away from a profile too much, you lose something. I am convinced of it but it could also just be that my ears and feel deceive me.
    The posts here don't make it too clear either if people are talking about the stack or the EQ when they adjust a profile which makes the whole discussion pretty much pointless.
    Op went from "It doesn't take my drive pedals well" to you can't adjust it to him not having found a profile that works well with extended range guitars.
    When asked which specific drive pedals he is talking about, he doesn't answer. I could - apart from some boutique, very new or US only pedals - get my hands on almost every pedal that's out there and double check.

    But whatever. It's TGP. Most of the people here haven't really took their time with the gear they talk about anyways....
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    Ingolf and Jose7822 like this.
  12. Danzego

    Danzego Member

    Messages:
    305
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Yeah, of course a bass knob at 0 will sound like shite on most any amp. However, we’re not talking about extremes, though. Not even close.

    That’s just the nature of the beast when it comes to the profiling method, as opposed to modeling. It sounds like the source amp within a certain window- great sound if the profile is done well, usually- but beyond that, the device itself has to start making some choices (generally) not inherent to the source amp. Profiling simply can’t allow as much tweaking as modeling and still retain the source amp’s inherent character and tendencies. It’s a well known trade off and has been for sometime.

    Always “fun” to see the people come out of the woodwork and act like it’s not there each time the discussion comes up, though. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Danzego

    Danzego Member

    Messages:
    305
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    So then I suppose we’re arguing two different things here. My replies (and I’m summarizing so others get it, not you) address faithfulness to the source when tweaking. After all, isn’t that what 95% of us buy this stuff for? To get the sound of specific amps and have them stay that way as we use them?

    If people are just talking about whether it sounds good in general, yeah I don’t care about that. I didn’t spend 2k+ on a Kemper to sound like a Kemper, if that makes sense. I don’t spend $10-$50 on profile packs to sound like a Kemper. I reckon most people don’t. ;)
     
  14. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2016
    Meh, you (1) bought the wrong device and (2) tried to force the Kemper to work the way you wanted to work rather than adapting yourself to its paradigm.
     
    Jose7822 likes this.
  15. Danzego

    Danzego Member

    Messages:
    305
    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Oh, hush. Now you are being what you said you weren’t trying to be. Time to reel it in, friend.

    Don’t act like it should be a forgone conclusion to anyone witnessing the Kemper that you aren’t able to retain the character of the target amp in the profile beyond minor adjustments. That’s a caveat that every Kemper owner who that had to experience (yes, a caveat. Anyone that might say they prefer the Kemper not being able to completely emulate a target amp is a liar).

    As for me buying the wrong device, that’s not for you to say. Is there some unwritten rule that one person can’t enjoy both approaches(profiling and modeling) but also recognize the limitations of each? Because that’s where I am.
     
  16. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2016
    :dunno paraphrasing: "everyone knows that if you go beyond minor tweaks of a profile, the Kemper stops sounding like the amp it profiled". "I didn't like the Kemper because once I went beyond minor tweaks of a profile, the Kemper stopped sounding like the amp it profiled." I don't disagree with any of those statements, I just think its evidence that you were trying to pound a square peg into a round hole, something almost all of us are guilty of at more than one point in our time with guitar gear.
     
    Ingolf and JiveTurkey like this.
  17. JiveTurkey

    JiveTurkey Supporting Member

    Messages:
    10,011
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    :anon
     
  18. Watt McCo

    Watt McCo Supporting Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2016
    Some of us make a fine art of square-peg pounding. :D :beer
     
    JiveTurkey likes this.
  19. Ejay

    Ejay Supporting Member

    Messages:
    1,922
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    Seems 2 kind of people here....ones that seek duplication of the knob behaviour of amps....and ones that value a device for it being able to get you what you need.

    Personally I like that the tonestack of the kpa is always the same. I know what the knobs do, gives me predictable outcomes, easy to work with. If tonestack would behave different with each profile id go mad.
    The good news is also that when u dial back bass...you get less bass...dial back mids...etcetc.
    If you would need some specific cut or boost the tonestack dont do...toss a parametric in an effectblock.

    With regards to tweakability of amps...theres only so much oil when it comes to settings an amp sounds good at...seems like the profilers I like hit those...and theres 13k profiles on the exchange...and countless commercial ones.
    Ill eat my shoe If “your personal walhala expert tweaker sounds”....is not in there...and prob a better version of it.
    Honestly...I havent heard an unique guitar sound in decades...from a gear perspective that is, result of fingers not included ;)
     
    flyingheelhook and Swampash like this.
  20. JiveTurkey

    JiveTurkey Supporting Member

    Messages:
    10,011
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2009
    [​IMG]
     

Share This Page