dominant flat 9 inversions

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by purestmonk, Feb 22, 2008.

  1. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

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    Hi guys
    Just wonder if anyone can help me out in getting good G7b9 inversion shapes?

    I have worked out G7 chords all over the fretboard. but when it comes to replacing the 5th with the b9, the fingering gets messed up.
    maybe could recommend me some resources if possible

    help would be appreciated
     
  2. jb70

    jb70 Supporting Member

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    one thing i would suggest is this: try moving your root up a half step instead of replacing the 5th. you might notice something interesting about the chord shapes of your inversions once you do this.
     
  3. willhutch

    willhutch Supporting Member

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    follow jb70's advise. Inversions of Dom7b9s have a special property when you omit the root. ;)
     
  4. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

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    thanks, i do understand that it becomes a diminished chord
    however, im trying to do the R, m3, M7, b9 voicing inversion ...
    mmmmm
    it's pretty tough to get a systematic way to do this .. as compared to the major, minor, diminished, augmented
    mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    anyone shed some lightttt
     
  5. jb70

    jb70 Supporting Member

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    i'm guessing you meant R M3 m7 b9. well some of the inversions are possible if you skip over strings and do a lot of stretching but many of them just don't sound so good. plus, you have to be very careful with that b9 in the bass register. there's a good reason why guitar players don't use inversions of this particular voicing that you're asking about. i know what you are asking and you're trying to be thorough learning your harmony but i think you're better off forgetting about the root in this case. that will also open things up once you start adding other altered notes.

    p.s. you could also try leaving out the 3rd and adding the 5th to make some of the inversions work (if you just want to deal with R 3 5 b7 and b9.
     
  6. guitarguy3612

    guitarguy3612 Senior Member

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    I'd say start with a Drop 2 voicing for your 7th Chord (G7 ) on the your first four strings (D,G,B,E). Then take your root and move it up a step or one fret. That gives you the flat-9... it's a rootless chord but its probably the easiest to get.

    Then you can drop the note on the high E-string down to the lowest E-string and keep the other notes the same. That's another voicing for it....


    I believe people were trying to surprise you with a discovering but in order to maybe make it easier for you... Rootless 7b9 chords are also fully diminished 7th chords.

    So your G7b9 at the 3rd fret would contain in order from D to High-E
    (F=b7, B=3rd, D=5th, Ab=b9). Those 4 notes are also the roots of the 4 diminished 7th inversions... so G7b9 is also Fdim7, Bdim7, Ddim7, and Abdim7.

    That helps us guitar players because... since Dim7 chords are symmetrical and the same chord shape repeats every 4 frets (min. 3rd apart) the same concept applies for 7b9 chords in which you replace the root with the b9... every 4 frets you have a new inversion but it's the exact same shape.




    Sorry for the long post....part of the reason I posted on here was to get out what I'm currently learning so this helped me reinforce it.

    Hope I helped in some way. ;)
     
  7. jb70

    jb70 Supporting Member

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    this was already covered
     
  8. gennation

    gennation Member

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    Not sure if this has been covered but...

    You can think of the b9 chord as two chords stacked onto each other...

    Like G13b9 is a G13 (give or take a note or two) stack on top of an E Major triad...

    G7b9
    E--4--
    B--5--
    G--4--
    D--3--
    A----
    E--3--

    Not being too concerned with the Root on the low E string...

    The D, G, and B string contain the b7, M3, 13 to cover the G13 or G7 aspect.

    But the G, B, and E strings are nothing but an E Major triad.

    So, with G13b9 (or simply G7b9) you have G13 overlapping with E Major.

    Now you have TWO different sets of chord you can use. IOW, find the basic Inversions of the basic Dominant/Major inversions for the G7, and the basic Major inversions for the E Major. So, you have MULTIPLE "basic" Inversions you can pick from to cover or imply the 7b9 chord.

    Plus, even though you say you already understand it from a Diminished approach...that Symmetrical scale gives 4 Dominant chords, 4 m7 chords, AND 4 m7b5 chord, not to mention all the dim7 chords...

    Now start dealing with ALL THOSE Inversions...since that what you're really dealing with, and...well...


    see you in about 10 years ;)
     
  9. Nick_

    Nick_ Member

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    The problem with the diminished approach to the b9 chords is that while it's fine if it's a chord built on the diminished scale but if it's intended to be altered (or the other people you're playing with see it that way) you run into trouble with that natural 5th.

    Much safer in a comping situation to leave the 5th out entirely, give a soloist the choice of harmonies.

    A quick way to find a voicing is to take a standard drop 2 or 3 voicing of the 7 chord a tritone away from your chord and omit its root.
     
  10. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

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    well thanks everyone

    i guess there are so many different versions, easiest is to replace root, next is to replace third ....
    =)))

    however mike, i do want to let you know that this thing is not that difficult .. for the past 2-3 months, i have incorporated so many voicings into my vocab - all 2-5-1 possibilities, diminished, m7b5, the implied mM7, etc etc ... i think it can be really worth it and will help in solo-ing and help understand voice leadings .. that's one thing many guitarists (i feel) are not really interested in working on ... i believe that with that knowledge applied, i can be a more effective solo jazz guitarist

    cheers neway =)
     
  11. JamonGrande

    JamonGrande Supporting Member

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    I've been experimenting with open voicings and stumbled on a b9 voicing:
    maj3rd on the D string, root on G, b9 on B, 7th on E. The larger intervals between the 3/tonic and b9/7 contrast in an interesting way against the m2 interval in the middle.

    Throw the 5th in on the low E to continue the wide intervals, Resolves nicely to a min/6 chord (first chord dominant to second chord tonic) Or move the 5th on the low E up a half step for a pretty tweaked augmented chord (if it even functions like that at that point), resolving up a whole step to a dom9 chord with the root in the bass. I have to work on that one.

    Also, the R,m3,M7,b9 chord is pretty interesting, but that's a different discussion

    joe
     
  12. theohartman

    theohartman Member

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    the harmonic theory of this aside, it sounds like you're just running into the challenge of voicing a chord 3 of the 4 notes of which are within a minor third of each other.

    if it were me, i'd ignore everything but the b7, R and b9 for now and find all possible combinations of those three tones across the 6 strings that you can reach.

    from there, it'll be short walk to i.d. the ones that will also allow you to also fret the 5, or get it by droning the D string.

    good luck. -t
     
  13. gennation

    gennation Member

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    Actually, in the frist part I was just trying to show you that it isn't that hard to find 7b9 inversions based on the idea that they would comprise of to simple inversion ideas with a 7th chord or it's stacked triad (G7 over E major).

    I added in the diminished stuff because it's always there, and when you look at the chords the symmetrical scale build, there's 12 more basic chord you can use and their inversion. So, a "7b9" can go a lot deeper than just a 7b9.

    I threw in the last "see you in 10 years" for fun. I didn't mean you wouldn't get it soon than that.
     
  14. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

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    haha no worries at all
    i actually respect you a lot and about a couple of months ago i read your advance pent lesson in whole ... learned quite a bit =)
    it's nice to have some reminders, thanks


     
  15. purestmonk

    purestmonk Member

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    i kind of agree w/ what u say in here ..
    the possibilities are just endless, i think it's nice to follow what kind of voicing anyone personally likes himself, then expand over the whole fretboard



     
  16. theohartman

    theohartman Member

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    it was my hope was to break it down into a process that would reveal that the physical possibilities are in fact _finite_ (picking a key, then finding the b7, R, b9 on any combination of 3 strings that you can reach), and that of those, fingerings that also permit a a 5 will number even fewer.

    at which point, yeah, it makes sense, hopefully, to select from the available options the voicing that gives the desired sound.
     

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