Double stops

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by Mig60, Jul 29, 2008.

  1. Mig60

    Mig60 Member

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    Hi,
    I've been working on double stops lately, specially listening to hendrix, but since i can't read music (just tabs) and don't know much about theory, i was just wondering if there is any diagram on the web with differents patterns of double stops refering to one chord all along the fretboard.
    Thanks anyway
     
  2. stevel

    stevel Member

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    A double stop is any two different notes played at the same time - three are called triple stop and so on. Usually it implies a series of these.

    The most common ones are ones that are easy to play!

    4ths on pairs of adjacent strings (like 4th fret on both the 1st and second string) with the exception of the 2nd and 3rd string, as these two produce a Major 3rd interval in that same position.

    5ths (like power chords) are similar, but people tend not to refer to them as double stops as much, because they're typically associated with chords.

    Probably the next most common are those that follow a scale:

    0 - 2 - 4 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 11 - 12
    ----------------------------
    1 - 2 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 9 - 11 - 13

    On the first and 3rd strings give you "parallel 6ths" in the key of E major.

    I would recommend you learn parallel 3rds, and parallel 6ths for keys. Other intervals, such as 2nds, 4ths, 5ths and 7ths wouldn't hurt.

    Another very common one is parallel octaves - I don't know if these are "true" double stops - and most people just say "in octaves". They are important to learn (and have become rampant in modern pop-rock songs to the point of cliche).

    Thirds:
    0 - 1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 8 - 10 - 12
    1 - 3 - 5 - 6 - 8 - 10 - 12 - 13

    That's C major (with C on the 2nd string to start)

    If you notice, you'll have a "1 fret wide" pattern alternating with a "2 fret wide pattern" in a specific pattern of alternation (2 of each type in a row, with one strict alternation).

    If you do this on strings 2 and 3 you get:

    2 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 10 - 12 - 14
    2 - 4 - 6 - 7 - 9 - 11 - 13 - 14

    That's A major (with A on the 2nd string to start).

    Notice, because the 2nd and 3rd strings are tuned only a 3rd apart, unlike the rest of the pairs of strings on the guitar, any patterns you discover have to be "adjusted" when they "cross over" or use the 3rd string.

    Best,
    Steve
     
  3. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    The best way to think about it is as a double stop being part of a chord. So if you have this over A:

    1)
    2)8-7-5
    3)9-7-6
    4)
    5)
    6)

    It's really just an abbreviation of this:

    1)
    2)8--7-5
    3)9--7-6
    4)11-7-5
    5)12-9-7
    6)

    So you have an A7 chord, a D chord, and then another A7 chord. I'd recommend learning a system like CAGED which will show you basic shapes over the fretboard. From there it will be easy to hit whatever double stops you want.



    The vid played but I didn't get any sound. Nice axes though...
     
  4. Mig60

    Mig60 Member

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    ok, thanks so much!
    stevel, that help a lot.

    Another thing, what kind of relation would be this?
    over a G major...

    - - - - -
    8-6-5-3
    - - - - -
    9-7-5-3
    - - - - -
    - - - - -

    thanks
     
  5. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    Those are 6ths, drawn from a harmonized G7 (G mixolydian) scale. By 6ths I mean that's the distance between the two notes within that scale (they're not always perfect 6ths). Sliding shapes like that is a very popular and usable technique. As I said before, learning something like CAGED will allow you to visualize the fretboard up and down the neck, where as scales are more across the neck. What you want to do is be able to visualize the CAGED shapes, and then "see" the scales (and double stops) within them.
     
  6. Mig60

    Mig60 Member

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    thanks again.
    So, the 6ths on G mixolydian are the same shapes that 3rds on C Major?
     
  7. stevel

    stevel Member

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    C mixolydian is:

    C D E F G A Bb C

    What you're doing is putting the series of notes starting a third higher, on top of C:

    E F G A Bb C D E
    C D E F G A Bb C

    Now you could put the thirds UNDER C:

    C D E F G A Bb C
    A Bb C D E F G A

    But we tend to hear the first one as "oriented in C" (or if someone were to say, harmonize a C mixolydian scale, the first on is what they'd expect). Obviously in real music, you're far more likely to move around than to just play them in strict order.

    So generally, when you play the 6ths version of the 3rds, you harmonize the 6ths BELOW the scale to keep the same "oriented in C" feeling:

    C D E F G A Bb C
    E F G A Bb C D E

    As for pattern:

    0-1-3-5-6-8-10-12
    1-3-5-6-7-9-11-13

    Makes C mix in 3rds (which out of context, sounds like F major).

    If you did 6ths, keeping C on the 2nd string:

    -------------------
    1-3-5-6-7-9-11-13
    -------------------
    2-3-5-7-8-10-12-14

    So the "shapes" change.

    It so happens if you play thirds on the 2nd and 3rd strings, it produces the same "shapes" as playing 6ths on the 1/3 and 2/4 string pairs, but that's more a coincidence of the way the guitar is tuned than something inherent in the pattern itself. Still, it's useful for memorizing them.

    Rob's method of seeing the 6ths or 3rds (or 4ths, etc.) as being a "subset" of a chord is also a valid way of thinking about them - you'll use both ways.

    So when you play a D chord:
    2
    3
    2
    0
    -
    -

    You should see in it, the 3rd:
    2
    3
    -
    -
    -
    -

    the 6th
    2
    -
    2
    -
    -
    -

    the octave
    -
    3
    -
    0
    -
    -

    and even the 10th (which is an octave plus a third, what's called a "compound interval)
    2
    -
    -
    0
    -
    -

    and of course, the 4th
    -
    3
    2
    -
    -
    -

    If you play the patterns like I've given, and then when you play a chord, take a moment to look and see if those shapes are found within the chord (they will be assuming you're not doing any kind of crazy stretch) you'll start to see the similarities.

    HTH,
    Steve
     
  8. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    No, but I understand why you'd say that. I'll try and explain, but it will seem complicated so bear with me:


    With that last shape you have there:

    1)
    2)3
    3)
    4)3
    5)
    6)

    It's the notes F and D. No matter what context, what chord is underneath, those notes are a 6th apart. it could be G7, it could be Cmaj, it could be E7b9#11- those notes are still a 6th apart. Same with this:

    1)
    2)5
    3)
    4)5
    5)
    6)

    That's a 6th as well. With the first two voicings you have it's a little more complicated- they're not perfect 6ths. With those you have a flat 6th (also called a minor 6th) interval. Why isn't it a natural 6th? Becase it won't fit the chord/key/scale we're in.

    Here is a C major scale:

    C D E F G A B

    And here's a G mixolydian scale:

    G A B C D E F

    It's the same notes (notice no sharps or flats), only starting in a different place.

    Let's take that G mixolydian scale and build 6ths from it. Start on G and count to six, we get E. G to E happens to be a perfect 6th. But let's start on B, B to G is a 6th, but it's not perfect, but it fits of chord/scale. B to G is this:

    1)
    2)8
    3)
    4)9
    5)
    6)

    So what you have in that last example is 6ths (two notes a 6th apart), built off the 3rd of G. If we're thinking in C, it would be off the major 7th of C. Make sense?
     
  9. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    Guess I need to learn to type faster...
     
  10. Swain

    Swain Member

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    Maybe this will help:

    -0---2---3---5---7---8---10---12---14---15---17---|-|-------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------|-|-------------------------
    -0---2---4---5---7---9---11---12---14---16---17---|-|-------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------|-|-------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------|-|-------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------|-|-------------------------
    Here are some 6ths. in the key of G.


    And here's how to use some over Dominant Chords:

    -3-------3---3---5-/-7---------|--8--------8---8---10-/-12--------|-----------
    -3-----------------------------|--8-------------------------------|-----------
    -4-------4---4---5-/-7---------|--9--------9---9---10-/-12--------|-----------
    -3-----------------------------|--8-------------------------------|-----------
    -5-----------------------------|--10------------------------------|-----------
    -3-----------------------------|--8-------------------------------|-----------

    G7 (Using Key Of C Patterns) C7 (Using Key Of F Patterns)

    -10-------10---10---12-/-14--------|------------------------------------------
    -10--------------------------------|------------------------------------------
    -11-------11---11---12-/-14--------|------------------------------------------
    -10--------------------------------|------------------------------------------
    -12--------------------------------|------------------------------------------
    -10--------------------------------|------------------------------------------

    D7 (Using Key Of G Patterns)
     
  11. paraedolia

    paraedolia Member

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    Good thread -- wish there were more like it on here instead of all the John Mayer / global warming / dumble / look what I have in the mail threads.
    Thanks guys.
     
  12. Mig60

    Mig60 Member

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    At first sight, i can't understand it, let me think about it. :) , but it will become crearly as i play the tabs.
    Thanks so much for yor patience.
    I've been playing for ... almost 20 years :jo (mostly punk and garage bands) and i've used many of this techniques, but without knowing the specific reason or way to do it "well". Every answer is a "revelation". :AOK
    Sorry for my english.
     
  13. Mig60

    Mig60 Member

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    I've been listening "like a rolling stone", Hendrix, live at monterey. the song is on C major, at [3:20] they go to G Major and do some double stops,, like the ones i said before:

    - - - - - - -
    8-6-5-3-1-0
    - - - - - - -
    9-7-5-3-2-0
    - - - - - - -
    - - - - - - -

    that's the reason i confused G mixolydian and C major. It looked the same to me.


    Anyway, what would be a good book or resource to help me understand this things?
    I don't want to get loose in scales or modes too much ( don't know too much about it and don't have too much time to do it, i spend most of it writing songs ) just to improve my knowledge of basic things playing classic rock or bluessy things combining major and minor pentatonics.

    thanks

    who is john mayer?
     
  14. Swain

    Swain Member

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    C Major and G Mixolydian do share the same notes.

    There's no real short cut, here. You need to learn basic Diatonic Harmony.

    Try the "Guitar Cookbook" by Jesse Gress. Or. the Doug Doppler DVD "Diatonic Harmony and Theory".

    Or, do a search here on TGP.
     
  15. stevel

    stevel Member

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    All you gotta do is ask.

    Steve
     
  16. stevel

    stevel Member

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    You've mentioned this twice Rob, and the first time I didn't think it meant what you think it means, but now I do.

    For those reading, we name intervals.

    There is no "perfect 6th".

    2nds, 3rds, 6ths, and 7ths, and their compounds can be Major, or minor.

    For example, E-C is a minor 6th (m6) and E - C# is a Major 6th (M6).

    Unisons (and octaves), 4ths and 5ths, and their compounds are Perfect.

    C - F = Perfect 4th (P4), C - G = Perfect 5th (P5).

    Any of the intervals can be Augmented or Diminished, and even Doubly Augmented or Diminished.

    B to F# is a P5, but B to F is a diminished 5th (o5).

    So the word "perfect" should be reserved for the intervals of unisons, octaves, fourths and fifths.

    Clarifyingly,

    Steve
     

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