Dry/Wet/Wet configuration info wanted

Discussion in 'Amps and Cabs' started by egkor, Sep 10, 2008.

  1. egkor

    egkor Member

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    Hi,

    I want to explore setting up my amps in a dry/wet/wet or wet/dry/wet type configuration.

    I have been looking all over the Internet (various forums) and I can't find the info I am seeking.

    I have one Peavy Classic 30, and two Vox AC15CC1 amps. I would run the Classic 30 as the "dry" amp, and the AC15s as the "wet" amps.

    The info I'm looking for is, what is the best way to do this? What benefits does this configuration provide? What bits of hardware are needed to do it?

    Appreciate it (and TIA) if anyone could point me at a web (or other) resource for this.

    -Gary K
     
  2. Kief

    Kief Senior Member

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    A typical W/D/W setup uses the line out of your dry amp running into your stereo effects, then finally to a pair of wet power sections/speakers (either a stereo power amp, or effects returns if using other guitar amps as the wet amp).

    The line out is used (as opposed to the effects send) because the speakers of the dry amp still see the signal from the preamp when using the line out. i.e., the signal is derived from the power section. For this reason a solid state power amp without additional power section coloration would be desirable. You are just re-amping the signal from your power section.

    Using effects returns as your wet power section still works though.
     
  3. photios

    photios Member

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    Sorry, I don't know a website online to piont you to, but maybe a picture will help (sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words):

    [​IMG]

    The yellow lines are signal level...the blue are speaker level.

    The point of wet/dry is to preserve your dry tone yet add in effects. Anytime you add effects to an amp, you change the tone (and usually for the worse)...by having your dry tone separate, you get the best of both worlds: killer dry tone + effects. So your signal goes from your guitar to your amp input...from you your amp input, you need to feed the speaker to a line-out box (I've showed the one that John Suhr offers, but there are others available too)...from a line out box you return your speaker signal to your amps speaker...but the box gives you also a line level signal too...this line level feeds your effects...I've shown a G-Major, but you could use analog pedals or any digital mutli effects unit...from the G-Major you go to a solid state amp...you use solid state becuase at this point you don't wanna color your tone...you already have the tone you like (your dry tone) and you're trying to preserve that but just add in effects...so solid state is what you want for wet...from the solid state amp, you go mono or stereo out to another separate speaker cab (I've shown a Bogner 1x12 but any speaker cab will work). Now you'll have your pristine dry tone thru your amp speaker and you'll have a copy of that dry tone with effects added thru a separate speaker cab...when you dial in the volumes properly, you get tonal nirvana...good stuff.

    Now as another option, you could mic your dry cab and then use a mic pre to capture that tone and feed it to your effects...this is actually a more accurate way to preserve your dry tone to be used with effects...but it requires a bit more detail, gear and attention...IMO, the line out box is far easier.

    BTW, this drawing is not to scale...the actual size of the line out box is roughly the size of a cigarette box...you could velcro it inside the Classic 30 cabinet.

    I'm not sure where your Vox would fit in...I guess if you wanted to augment your dry tone, you could use a head switcher or head combiner and use one or both heads at the same time...your wet tone though would only be from the Classic 30...unless you had 2 line out boxes and fed one side of your effects with the 30 and one side with the Vox...you'd have mono wet 30 and mono wet vox...be kinda complex, but it might give you the tone you're looking for.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2008
  4. barryoneal

    barryoneal Member

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    We have felt that w/d/w really makes for a pristine tone. It's not just a loudness upgrade by adding two more complete amps, but a big increase in soundstage. With stereo effects, the result is pretty amazing. We feel strong enough about that we designed our neuma Standard to serve as the preamp and dry center channel of a w/d/w rig.

    I think to get started, and get a rough idea whether the increase in rig complexity is worth it for you, I would recommend that you use the FX send of your classic to drive whatever stereo out effects piece you have and then set the two AC15's as clean as possible and drive them from the effect's output. You might throw in a stereo volume pedal to adjust the amount of effects you're running on the fly. A line out box would give you a more accurate picture of what is at the speaker, but you might be satisfied with the FX send results.

    Adjust mix and overall levels to taste. The Vox's may not be able to compete volume-wise but would still be a worthwhile experiment as you already have them, and depending on the level of grease you like, they could be fine. It should definitely be a huge sound, ping pong delays and all.

    All the best,
    Barry.
     
  5. Kief

    Kief Senior Member

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    ^^ If he used the effects send from the Peavey, would he still be able to get his dry signal?

    There would have to be a "through" output on the effects unit to go back to the return of the peavey, no?


    Also, consider using a small mixer to use in the loop of the Classic 30, like the Suhr Mini Mix. It will give you W/D tone, but without the stereo spread. Less gear and more gig friendly, great sound.
     
  6. buddaman71

    buddaman71 Student of Life Silver Supporting Member

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    Amp Send Into the FX processor Input.
    (As long as nothing is going back into the dry amp's return, it shouldn't be affected in any way. The send is a preamp out only.)
    Stereo FX outs into each of the AC15s.
    If you use combos with FX loops, take the FX outs directly into their RETURNS.
    Works and sounds great; I have set up small WDW rigs like this for years.
    Using a mini-mix in a serial loop simply makes it a parallel loop. Sounds good, but nowhere near the sound of actual WDW.
    No contest.
     
  7. barryoneal

    barryoneal Member

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    I agree with buddaman71, if you don't mess with the return jack, the PV should be unaffected. The mixer option has big advantages in simplicity, but there is something different about freeing that center speaker from producing any effects. I think using one is def. a plus when using a single amp.

    -Barry.
     
  8. RGB

    RGB Supporting Member

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    Excellent post, Photios!

    The way I normally do it is to use an A/B/Y Switch (Lehle Dual) and an effect with stereo outputs. The A side goes to the dry amp and the B side goes to the stereo effect unit which then runs left and right to the two wet amps. Gotta watch for phase issues, though....as an option, I can also use an Axess buffer to split the signal so I can flip phase if needed.
     
  9. photios

    photios Member

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    +100000000

    I had a mini-mix (since sold it off)...great peice of gear and it does make things portable...but no where near the "tits" setup and pro, lush sounds of a true w/d/w. That said, I would also try it first...if it does satisfy your ear, you saved a lot of money and you saved your back a lot of work during load in and load outs...lol...if it doesnt work for ya, flip it off for nearly what you paid for it (JS gear holds its value well).
     
  10. barryoneal

    barryoneal Member

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    +1 Very prudent advice.
     
  11. buddaman71

    buddaman71 Student of Life Silver Supporting Member

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    For what it's worth, I used to have a pretty compact WDW setup comprised of a 212 Mesa Maverick, a 2U rack with a Mesa 20/20/Rocktron Intellifex feeding a 212 stereo cab. I just sat the Maverick on top of the 212 and set the small rack on its side.

    KILLER tone and not much more floor space than the 212 alone.

    I ditched the power amp and just feed my wet signals into my Tech 21 Power Engines.

    Works great.

    ;)
     
  12. egkor

    egkor Member

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    *WOW* :bow

    I'm the "OP" ... I really appreciate everyone's time, effort, and expertise to post these answers!!!

    I'm going to take some time and digest what has been and is being posted.

    I suspect your posts have cut hours/days/weeks off of learning curve for me, possibly others with the same question.

    Many Thanks!

    -Gary K
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2008
  13. egkor

    egkor Member

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    I've read the replys, and and for the most part have an understanding.

    I understand the re-amping concept.

    What I'm going to try first is the most simple, and I have the pieces/parts to do it. This is based on the previous posts and recomendations.

    Guitar signal to dry amp, Peavy Classic 30.

    Peavy Classid 30 EFX out signal to "pedal train" (distortion, chorus, delay). The chorus and delay pedals are recent Boss, and have stereo out.

    Output Left/Right signals from stereo pedal(s) to each of 2 Vox AC15CC1 guitar amps.

    This would give me the dry center (Peavy), and the wet left and right (AC15s).

    One drawback of this scheme is that I'm not getting the "post power amp" signal from the dry Peavy, I'm getting "post pre amp". But, it is a start.

    Thanks again very much!

    -Gary K
     
  14. vinney57

    vinney57 Member

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    Your distortions should be BEFORE the Classic 30 pre-amp, the delay and chorus after in the manner you describe.
    ie:
    Guitar - Distortion - Peavey C30 input - FX send - Chorus, Delay - stereo out to the AC15's. Distortions after the pre-amp sound really horrible.

    I have a similar sort of set-up
    Guitar - Keeley TMB- Tuner -Keeley Comp - Budda Wah- Phase 90 - DejaVibe - Keeley RAT- Fulltone GT500 - PeaveyC30 input - effects send back to the pedalboard - Trem- Chorus - Delay - stereo outputs to a Solid State amp into two Marshall 1 x 12's.
     
  15. barryoneal

    barryoneal Member

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    I agree with the above and would add that any effects that you are going to want 100% wet will need to go in front of the PV. So if you use heavy flanger, phaser, and trem sounds you will need to have them in front of the PV because you might not otherwise be able to get the effect level that you like.

    -Barry.
     
  16. cochese

    cochese Supporting Member

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    I was just using a two amp setup today in my studio. Running 2 amps dry or with a stereo chorus is a huge sound. Now I also ran a delay to my second amp and for me here is the problem. The two amps running dry sounds big and full. When I switch on the delay which is set to 100% wet the sound gets smaller because the bypassed sound is both amps running at the same basic volume. If I run the delay at the same level it's way too much delay. This will even be compounded in a wet/dry/wet rig. I think if you are not turning effects on and off with a w/d/w everything is fine. However if you are inclined to have your time domain effects like verb and delay set to 100% wet when you turn them on your sound level will be reduced. When mixing effects in the studio there is no dry amp. Everything comes out of two speakers and the effects are mixed to the appropriate levels which is much smoother imho.

    How does everyone else do this?
     
  17. mrmax

    mrmax Member

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    I use a MK IV as my dry amp, using the fx send to some type of stereo processor to fx returns of 2 Boogie Simulclass satellites, works for me , been doing it that way since the mid 90's, never been a problem. ;););)
     
  18. candh

    candh Member

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    Here's my rig.

    Dry amp to Weber MASS set to bypass. MASS line out to delay and verb. That signal goes to wet amps loop return. Wet balance and tone is controlled by the MASS vol and tone stack. Granted, your wet amp has to have a loop in it but this is the simplest setup for a wet/dry.
     
  19. egkor

    egkor Member

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    "OP" here ... :)

    I now see the distinction that some effects (volume pedal, compression, wah, distortion, tremolo for example) go before the dry amp, while others (chorus, delay) go after.

    I also see that probably the best w/d/w congfiguration is to get a "low level out" from the speaker level out of the dry amp (I know the THD Hotplate and other boxes can do this), and pass that along to a power amp (and cabs) so that the volume/tone stack of the dry amp controls the wet(s). And as stated above, the effects (depending upon type) are strategically placed either pre or post dry amp.

    Thanks again everyone, very detailed and helpful info!

    -Gary K
     
  20. photios

    photios Member

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    Well most w/d/w rigs use a single amp for simplicity (makes controlling volume and keeping unity gain way easier)...with 2 amps you can do it with some help...the way to get unity gain on your volume regardless of what effects and what dry channel you're on is to use a midi controlled mixer/router...check out the Switchblade from Sound Sculpture.
     

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