Ear training method?

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by $tratcat, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. GovernorSilver

    GovernorSilver Member

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    You don't think it's useful to recognize a major 6th interval - when you hear it - and not confuse it with a minor 6th interval or a minor 7th interval?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
  2. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Don't think that's what he's saying...
     
  3. mcmurray

    mcmurray Member

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    Nowhere near as important as recognizing a scale degree within the context of a tune.

    Unless you're only concerned with atonal music, which I'm guessing 99.9% of us here are not.
     
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  4. GovernorSilver

    GovernorSilver Member

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    There you go, Ed.

    Thanks for clarifying. I'm not only interested in atonal music. My chosen path for developing my improvisational ability will crash to a dead end without interval recognition, as well as awareness of the voices in the harmony and awareness of scale degree if the harmony is based on the scale is also a must if the music is tonal.

    Brett Garsed was the educator/guitarist who encouraged me to pursue this path, via his teaching methods - his approach is entirely based on interval recognition. I'd been exposed to interval training before I heard of him but I wasn't ready to consider it seriously at the time of initial exposure. There are many examples of his playing readily available on Youtube and other places on the Internet for one to judge the effectivness of his approach. No doubt some people will hear a bit of his playing and say "I don't like it he sucks therefore his method is a fail". In any case, I think he is a great rock guitarist - I am not aware of any work of his in the field of atonal music.

    But I do recognize there is more than one path to develop and improve soloing ability. Best of luck to you on your path.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  5. mcmurray

    mcmurray Member

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    Do you typically reference each interval to the tonic?

    Here's why I don't like interval recognition training as the basis for developing your ear:

    Take the key of C major, for example. There are many different perfect 5th intervals within it, i.e. C to G, D to A, E to B, A to E etc. Each sounds very different in the context of a tune which is in C major. In other words, once a key has been established in your ear, and you've remembered the sound of the perfect 5th between C to G, you can't use this sound to identify A to E.

    If you're learning intervals always referring to the tonic however, this is essentially the same as solfege and in this case I have no problem with it.

    Edit: fixed typos.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
  6. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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    Fwiw you quoted some one else not me...
    Now that said I'll run with it.

    I reference everything to what I perceive as the key.
    Now when it goes out if key say if the chord is V of VI or E7 in C I view it as a III7 and hear say it's 3rd as the #5 of I that wants to resolve to the 6 or 5 of 1.

    As for Garsed...love his playing. Him and I go back 30 years when I took private lessons with him.
    But his playing then was quite less harmonically advanced, that came I'm guessing when he played with Fierabracci.
    And that was about as much an ear opener as playing with Kimock, George Brooks or L.Shankar.
    So yes I'm a big believer in hearing intervals. How we arrive at it don't matter jack to me.
    Side note, I emailed Randy Vincent inquiring about private lessons.
     
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  7. GovernorSilver

    GovernorSilver Member

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    For analysis of tonal music, yes.

    During improvisation, I construct a phrase out of a sequence of intervals, which is what Garsed does and so does at least one other TGP member. This where we need to know that if we play a C and we want to play a major 6th down from the C, that the next note to play is an Eb and not an E or a D. This does not mean we ignore the tonic (if improvising within tonal music) or other things going on at the moment - but that's the difference between analyzing music and improvising. In the middle of improvisation, we can't afford to spend much time thinking about things - that is why people talk about the subconscious vs. the conscious mind when this happens.

    That said, if you don't improvise or prefer another approach, that's ok with me.

    C going up to E is a major 3rd not a perfect 5th. C going down to E is a minor 6th.

    D to E is also not a perfect 5th in either direction
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019
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  8. mcmurray

    mcmurray Member

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    Whoops. I meant D to A and C to G. Edited.
     
  9. Guitarist64

    Guitarist64 Member

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    I once auditioned a guy that learned only from tabs...I was playing the song in its original F# and he started trying to play along in G. No ear at all.
     
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  10. Pitar

    Pitar Member

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    This, by far, is the most intimate and direct method you could follow to train your ear to the fret board. Listen to the music, find it on the fret board, and continue in this manner until you can hear stuff and can pretty much nail down the key and progression by ear alone.

    I can hear something now somewhere while I'm out and about and play it within a short period after getting home. Before I touch the fret board I know the progression (by ear). Then I find the key that gives the easiest and fullest progression on the board. I'm not over-simplifying it. That's what ear training does.
     
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  11. cdrjayb

    cdrjayb Member

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    See...I told you I was old. :)
     
  12. GovernorSilver

    GovernorSilver Member

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  13. Ed DeGenaro

    Ed DeGenaro Supporting Member

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  14. GovernorSilver

    GovernorSilver Member

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    I'm not a very good improviser, but as documented on Youtube, my improvisational skills have gotten better as I have concentrated more and more on all the areas listed under Ears, Mental Conception, and Physical Connection to Sound.

    Before I took those things more seriously, my improvisational skill was limited to bad blues-rock licks and badly executed scale runs.
     
  15. GovernorSilver

    GovernorSilver Member

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    I saw that article on Keyboard Corner, though one of the responses brought up guitars and guitarists.

    This article was also posted in the same thread - interesting to see that even horn players are not immune to GAS:
    https://www.jazzadvice.com/why-your...quipment-is-not-making-you-a-better-musician/

    My favorite guitars are cheap by TGP standards ($1300-1600 range each vs. $8000+), but I didn't start buying them until I convinced myself that I was sufficiently committed to playing the guitar, by meeting certain playing goals, however modest.
     
  16. dewey decibel

    dewey decibel Supporting Member

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    I'll be honest, I've always compared intervals to the tonic, but lately (as in the last couple years) have been wishing I didn't start out that way....
     
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  17. dsimon665

    dsimon665 Supporting Member

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    In some contexts I don't think about it much (what I'm "hearing"), unless something is noticeable -
    it depends on what I've been working on - e.g. I remember noticing the tritone between 2 and b6 in minor, but after a while I stopped noticing it.
    So sometimes its the novelty of a sound that comes to the forefront, but after experience its not there.

    When I worked on modal certain aspects of those stood out more - to the point of hearing a 'ringing' with certain licks/movements.
    It took a while to figure out what that was about (at least a theory behind it)

    Also I'm not positive (I haven't run enough "experiments" :) ), but I have a theory that working on functional harmony is a detriment to (the hearing of) some of the magic in modal, but it could just be my inexperience.

    When working on ii V's then that sound becomes prevalent, even within the context of a progression .
    For example V/IV should have its own sound relative to the key (compared to V/I).

    The 'plug and play' aspect of 2 5's (within a certain line of study/pedagogy) will make those relationships less distinguishable.
    At least when playing in that manner - if playing melodically (or say, singing) then the key center would be more in the forefront.

    I figure learning to hear secondary dominants in a tonal context (as opposed to plug and play 2 5's) is another area of ear training.
    There's a book called "Performance Ear Training" that works on that - chromatic solfege in a jazz setting.
    Written by Donovan Mixon (a guitar player too)

    Within functional harmony...Besides secondary dominants, there are also other subtle and/or familiar areas that seem worthwhile to study.
    There are some good studies in Harmonic Experience on the difference between dominant, subdominant and minor/relative function.
    Some of these are like pivot chords - but within the same key - where the chord can serve two roles.
    For example bIII can serve as the mediant of minor, or as the IV/IV/IV.
    In Harmonic Experience, there are 15 such chords with two models each (two models are needed to demonstrate a pivot in each direction)
     

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