Echopark Guitars

Discussion in 'The Small Company Luthiers' started by datguytim, Jan 27, 2013.


  1. NewLeaf09

    NewLeaf09 Supporting Member

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    I'm curious enough to ask for details. Unless you buy in bulk for resale or you have the world's worst luck, that type of work is not consistent with "top notch" builders, especially in the quantity and variety you describe. Sure, anyone can make an error, but it seems reasonable that the number and severity of problems should go down as the price goes up, ceteris paribus, yada, yada.
     
    John Hurtt, kbgear and jiml like this.
  2. Crshngdstryr

    Crshngdstryr Member

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    I know what you’re getting at, but to be fair, there was a lot of overlap. I have screenshots of your IG posts praising EP which were posted around the same time you were in here ripping EP. Not trying to rehash our discussion from yesterday, because quite frankly I don’t have much more to add to what I’ve already said. You used to like EP, now you don’t, but you’ll keep playing yours. Fair enough.
     
  3. 2tone

    2tone Silver Supporting Member

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    I didn't think so either. I am not going to name the builders, they are well known on this forum and have since corrected their in house QC problems..I went ahead and ordered three more guitars from one builder, all great, and one more from the other builder, again great, no issues. I knew from prior experience that they had some major blip in order to send out guitars like this. I have also had painted nitro bodies and necks done that were totally unsellable, and I returned them. These were well known builders too, probably letting someone less skilled do the job, never checking it before it goes out the door. After talking to all the vendors involved, I gave some another chance, and two of them never ordered again based on their attitudes about their shoddy work.
     
  4. svenhoek

    svenhoek Supporting Member

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    You took screenshots? Something about this just seems... off. I don't really want to get involved, but this is seeming a bit obsessive. Not helping to dissolve the shill vibe.

    Seems like some folks are being upfront about who they are and why they feel the way they do, and some others are being quite cagey, yet they appear extraordinarily motivated to protect a builder that doesn't seem to treat some of his customers with the level of respect one would expect, esp given the price point.

    I loved the look of Echo Park guitars, told friends about them in the early days. This thread has certainly changed my view on any further recommendations. For whoever is involved with EPG, you'd do well to take a moment out and reflect upon what legitimate constructive criticism is being offered here, hold back on the defense, and consider your role in your customer's discomfort.

    Everyone wants a wide variety of amazing guitars to choose from, at the end of the day. We'd rather EPG succeeded, with many happy customers, than the opposite.
     
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  5. magnus02

    magnus02 Member

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    There's something so bizarre about comparing the 'punk rock, don't give a f#ck' attitude of vintage juniors etc that were beginner grade instruments when new and only got that vibe bc they were cheap and available to grunge/punk rockets and the $3-12,000!!! guitars built one-by-one, by hand by a luthier.

    Does that not seem odd???

    Sure, give a modern, badass interpretation but execute it WELL and that makes sense.

    But to claim you're building it on purpose (which I don't believe Gabe has ever claimed) with imperfections is just stupid. It's not even fashion like a relic, it's just a big middle finger to your clients.

    And don't give me the 'well it's hand made' argument. Most of the small builders on this site aren't using cnc etc. The problem is Gabe is using a chisel when he should have a belt sander out. He's seemingly using the wrong tools or lazy 'shortcuts' and no templates (I GUARANTEE you Gibson used templates to build juniors back in the day).

    I'm not trying to be argumentative but some of the defense tactics for him just don't add up for me.

    If his guitars were $1,200 sure... But at the price point... Nope.
     
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  6. Crshngdstryr

    Crshngdstryr Member

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    Why? I came on here with pure intentions of simply voicing my honest opinion that some of the criticisms on here were inappropriate, and have paid the price. I have been called a shill countless times, and have been attacked (on here and in private) by a number of people simply for voicing an opinion. I think that’s so messed up. If you want to know, I’m a guitar player on the f#cking east coast. I’ve never met Gabriel and have never spoken to him outside of the context of my build. Yet, I came here to voice what I thought was an objective observation that talking about his prison time and spelling/grammar was messed up, and I have only been attacked for it and accused of being an insider. Not only that, I have Mr. Henry Amps and Jiml riding my a55 about every single thing I post simply because they don’t agree with it.

    This whole thread has just proved that outsider opinions will not be tolerated, and that if you wanna post in here, it better be negative or else STFU. I thought there were some really valuable insights on this thread, but I am absolutely disgusted with the way I and others have been treated for simply disagreeing. @shallbe even went so far to say that he hopes my EP has problems when it gets delivered. Really? Man, I’ve tried to be polite, but statements like that’s are absolutely sickening to me. Stuff like that proves just how ridiculous this thread is and that if you don’t get in line, the usual cast of characters will come at you hard.
     
  7. NewLeaf09

    NewLeaf09 Supporting Member

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    You're prone to hyperbole and have in my estimation attempted to derail or lock up this thread. You were not called "shill" countless times. It's entirely possible to count the number and it's not that many times. Tedious arguments of insidious intent.
     
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  8. Crshngdstryr

    Crshngdstryr Member

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    Proving my point.
     
  9. NewLeaf09

    NewLeaf09 Supporting Member

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    Not at all. You have this plaintive appeal of genuine concern - using phrases like "pure intentions" and "simply voicing my honest opinion" and "objective observations" (which have been nothing of the kind) when referring to yourself, yet you have been caustic to others from your first post on. It's all here, dude. Read it and weep.
     
  10. svenhoek

    svenhoek Supporting Member

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    I'd feel a little unsettled if someone went through all my media and informed me they had screenshots, which they then used to attack my honest opinion at length. No one can state with certainty what your intentions are, and I think most folks here try to give the benefit of the doubt. But if you aren't involved with EPG, your attempts to defend them may be doing more harm than good at this point, IMHO. I'm not saying stop, you have every right to say whatever you like, but if you truly care about the company, then perhaps consider that your words can have repercussions to casual followers such as myself. Cause appearances are what they are.

    Hopefully all involved at EPG pull together and do what they need to do so they and their customers are successful and content. We can all agree on that.
     
    kbgear, jerrycampbell and JPH118 like this.
  11. Crshngdstryr

    Crshngdstryr Member

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    I agree with this. If you have an EP on order, I hope it’s great. Good luck Lenport.
     
  12. jerrycampbell

    jerrycampbell Member

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    Gosh, kind of a drama queen, aren't you?
    Stop bringing up his 'prison time'.
    No one cares about that except buyers that find his story part of the 'mojo' of his product.
    Why do you associate 'extra wabi-sabi' with 'problems'?
     
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  13. noley

    noley Member

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    Crshngdstryr and Lenport have guitars on order from EPG, the resale values of which are likely dropping with every new post. Both have a lot at stake and I for one wish them both the best outcome, whatever that might be at this point.

    Lenport seems realistic but still positive and has rightly gained a lot of supporters over the course of this thread.

    Crshngdstryr on the other hand...o_O
     
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  14. kbgear

    kbgear Silver Supporting Member

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    No, your criticisms are unfair. He has every right to do all of these things. The fact that he can enjoy a flawed product is EXACTLY the kind of argument you're trying to make. You're trying to have it both ways, and the only motive I can see is to attack people. Why? To get people to shut up? Why?

    You could state your opinions respectfully, but you have yet to do so, IMO.
     
  15. kbgear

    kbgear Silver Supporting Member

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    He's involving himself because this is a public forum. How dare you challenge someone's involvement in a public forum.

    Talk about hypocrisy! Someone offers a contrary opinion to you, and you start crucifying. Take a step back and look in the mirror, this isn't doing anyone any good.
     
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  16. Da Geezer

    Da Geezer Supporting Member

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    Actually, if Crshngdstryr succeeds in getting this thread locked, or even better deleted altogether, it would do him (and the value of his investment) a great deal of good....I believe this is the ultimate goal.

    The tricky part will be achieving this without getting himself banned
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017
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  17. FiestaRed

    FiestaRed Gold Supporting Member

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  18. cmatthes

    cmatthes Member

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    Exactly this. Some guy who spent $5,000-$10,000 on a guitar because of some completely imaginary "punk" aesthetic (as he bashes out chords in a mirror with a sneer) may be the most pathetic image this thread has conjured up thus far.
     
  19. FiestaRed

    FiestaRed Gold Supporting Member

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    Uh oh!

    (Hides expensive guitar)
     
  20. Mooster

    Mooster Member

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    Does it matter if Crshndstryr is a shill or not? Does it matter if he has a vested interest in protecting EPG? I don’t think so because people reading this thread are intelligent enough to make up their own minds about the relative weight behind the various arguments surrounding this debate. If an argument is that the QC and delays are not great, and the response is that it is not so important, people make up their mind on that. But he has a point in that he has been attacked for expressing an opinion, whatever that opinion might be. If people are not encouraged to share an opinion, no matter what that opinion is, then there is an atmosphere of hostility.

    As for the personal attacks on Gabe, I didn’t point out his prior incarceration. But I did comment that he has done the crime and has done the time. But I did point out his weakness in communication. Why did I make it personal? Because you are dealing with him, he is the front end of EPG. My comment was made in context of the other evidence such as getting customer orders mixed up, building guitars to wrong specs that he had agreed upfront, building guitars with some questionable QC, some orders queue jumping other orders, and being distracted. All of that built up in my mind that he is disorganised and lacking attention to detail. If we were dealing with Gibson for instance, it would not be personal because you have a customer relations department or a service department. But if Gabe is the front-end of EPG, then that is the person you are dealing with. As for whether he is dyslexic, when he was questioned on IG a couple of years ago on his usage of grammar and spelling, he brushed it off light-heartedly as the by-product of his education. As an aside, I was born dyslexic and I still am. But because of that I focus on the way I communicate because I understand that we are defined by our actions and words. Whilst people who suffer from dyslexia might need more time to deal with a difficulty in comprehension, this does not mean that they are unable to comprehend and communicate properly. My point is that if the various snippets of evidence sum up to a person who does not come across as someone who is a details guy, then because he is the front-end, back-end, and running the whole circus, it is an important factor when you are doing business with him.
     
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