Eric Johnson / Allen Holdsworth chord forms

Discussion in 'Playing and Technique' started by jzucker, Jan 11, 2008.

  1. bluesmain

    bluesmain Member

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  2. Gigbag

    Gigbag Member

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    Thanks for posting the lesson. I got into that EJ chording years ago, but your lesson made it seem so simple that I want to get into using that type of chording again.

    I need to keep chipping away at SOS I and SOS II. Your input on this forum has always been valuable. Thanks again for taking the time to post such useful lessons.
     
  3. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

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    Very Nice Jack ..

    Man, that's one super beautiful tone you're getting out of that guitar ...
     
  4. yeast2000

    yeast2000 Member

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    Jack, I sincerely thank you for posting the lessons. I learn a lot from your vids.
     
  5. jony2

    jony2 Member

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    Great stuff, any chance you're posting the chord diagrams or something?
     
  6. gennation

    gennation Member

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  7. Dickie Fredericks

    Dickie Fredericks Member

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    I agree the tone is great and so are the lessons. I appreciate the lessons Jack but what I really appreciate is that you let the viewer know that you too struggle with some things and leave the clams in the vids.

    I think this is cool coming from such an accomplished player.

    No one is perfect yet most videos make the player seem invincible.
     
  8. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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  9. Tri7/5

    Tri7/5 Supporting Member

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    It's strange to think about cause starting on the high E you harmonize descending and if you start on the low E you harmonize ascending. But each give's you a different 4th. One being a D, the other being a C.

    Am I thinking about this correctly or totally confusing myself?
     
  10. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Excellent, Thank you.

    That once again expanded my brain a few cents.

    I've played the fundamental sus chords for years
    With your ideas it becomes a whole new harmonic teritory.

    And it's like a "duh" thing.


    Very cool.
     
  11. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    You're confusing yourself. Look at the chord forms I have on my lessons page. Remember, what makes the voicings 4ths is that the notes are stacked on top of each other spaced in 4th intervals. *HOWEVER*, the tones are adjusted for the key signature. In the case of the key of G, the voicing from the bottom would be G C F#.

    Wait 'til I talk about pentatonic chords... :crazy
     
  12. Tri7/5

    Tri7/5 Supporting Member

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    Please excuse this metal-head who is slowly but surely getting more and more into jazz and fusion territory...

    It does make sense to me starting from the low E and stacking 4th's as you mentioned above. G C F#

    So the first chord in the link is actually just the Dorian mode of the G major scale A D G?
     
  13. jzucker

    jzucker Supporting Member

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    You could look at it that way. I tend not to think of the chord as being a mode. I tend to think of the key center (G) and then the chords are a cluster of notes that are diatonic to a given key. Then, when you understand that, you can apply these chords to any of the chords in the key of G. Strictly speaking (ADG) you are talking about an A4ths chord with an implied minor 3rd and therefore dorian.
     
  14. Clifford-D

    Clifford-D Member

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    Hello Mr Dyingsea,

    That first chord move goes like this

    G
    |---3-----------|
    |---3---------3-|
    |---2---------2-|
    |---2---------5-|
    |---------------|
    |---------------|
     
  15. JonR

    JonR Member

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    A chord - at least one as simple as that - is not a mode. It would depend on what bass note or chord appeared with that chord, what mode would be heard.

    In fact, jack (or should I say mr zucker... ;) ), actually demonstrates the various 4th voicings over an A bass in the video (from around 2.30), which does make an A dorian context for all of them.
    Dorian mode is cool because it has no "avoid notes", meaning all the possible chord voicings can sit neatly against (in this case) an A bass.
    Most other bass notes might set up awkward clashes with one or two notes - but then one of the attractions of quartal chords used in this manner is (IMO) the consistency of application: running the same chord structures up the scale lends an integrity to the sound overall which over-rides passing awkward dissonances.

    In modal music - in any case - dissonance is a source of useful colours, rather than functional chord roles.
    In key-based music (using primarily tertian chords), each chord has an important role in leading the harmony forward, and dissonances are carefully assigned. Each chord has a job to do, and certain added notes can disrupt that function (which is basically what the idea of "right" and wrong" notes comes down to).
    In modal music (at least as applied in jazz), chords normally don't have functional roles. Each chord can exist in isolation, as the expression of a single mode (over a whole tune, or in sequence with other independent modes), which doesn't need to resolve anywhere - or be resolved to. Therefore, any diatonic dissonance is OK, as colour (you simply go with sounds you like in their own right).

    Quartal chords are widely used in modal jazz because of their very ambiguity (root-wise), and can almost be seen as random collections of notes from the mode - the only restriction being to avoid (as far as possible or practical) harmonies in 3rds or 6ths. IOW, chords become fluid entities, more like roaming melodic forms.
    I'm not sure if jack intended to demonstrate this in that video, but it's a good illustration of the principle (IMHO!).

    You can hear a similar kind of thing (various quartal voicings from the background mode) being played by Bill Evans on Miles's seminal modal album "Kind of Blue", on "So What" and "All Blues".

    Of course, quartal chords can have a role in functional (key-based) music, but they tend to have roles conferred on them - as with sus chords. (We may hear a 7sus4 as a dissonance awaiting resolution. It wouldn't be heard that way in a modal tune. Eg, in key of C major, we'll expect a G7sus4 to go to C eventually - perhaps via a plain G7. In G mixolydian, we wouldn't - or shouldn't! - expect that.)

    Aside from that, there are ways that non-diatonic quartal chords might be used to harmonise melodies - but I guess that's another topic...:rolleyes:
     
  16. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Just to clarify, I think you're referring to the point where he plays the initial quartal chords as inversions. Both voicings being 3-notes. IOW, this:

    |---3-- G
    |---3-- D
    |---2-- A
    |------
    |------
    becomes this (2nd inversion):
    |------
    |---3-- D
    |---2-- A
    |---5-- G
    |------
    ... and so on up the neck.
     
  17. Tri7/5

    Tri7/5 Supporting Member

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    I understand that a chord is not a mode. It's hard to type out music explainations without showing what I mean. For me at least. He's using the A root in the context of the G major scale so my mind automatically just says oh yeah that's the Dorian.
     
  18. JonR

    JonR Member

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    Yeah, I see that. :)
    I think the (subtle) point here is the A note is not really a root - it just happens to be the lowest note in the chord.
    That's the thing with quartal chords - any note can be the root; or they just don't have a root at all (or a root that's a note that's not in the chord).

    Eg, that first A-D-G shape. Is it A7sus4? Is it Dsus4? Is it Gsus2? Could be any of them. It could also be a partial (rootless) C69, F69, Dm11, Em11...
    That's both the problem and the big advantage of quartal harmony: the identities of the chords are ambiguous, and (in the end) irrelevant.
     
  19. Lucidology

    Lucidology Member

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    Many great players I know don't even think of
    this kind of note formulating as chords ...
     

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