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Ethical dilemma re: headstock break in guitar store- comments please?

headstack

Member
Messages
195
Unfortunately, when it comes to business/money, doing what is right is well above the norm these days. It is usually about the dollar not the customer and this has done nothing but thin the gravy to dirty dishwater. I do not like soggy biscuits at all, so I only "eat" at establishments where it is about the "food" and the customer is able to only find quality. Only then can we begin to work on customer experience. If you treat someone nicely and then serve them junk, it is phony business all the way! Now, out of the cryptic... It sounds like the stand was one of the lightweight, fork style body cradles? Tubular or bent sheet metal? Either way, unless the stand is made with the slightest bit of care, the body has to be stuffed against the bend at the back of the fork. Any farther forward and the stand tips over! However, back far enough to keep the stand upright is just perfect to dump the instrument out of the stand. One last thing! Never seen a glue joint fail without at least the slightest stress cracks in the finish. If you did not see ANY after a careful inspection, it is difficult to believe that the one spill did the instrument in... Though I have seen stranger!
 

bluesgolfer

Member
Messages
545
Thanks Bluesgolfer. And don't worry as New England native I am a Pats fan and wil never pull for the Cowboys. :D

Doesn't matter who you pull for, whoever it is, there's not much chance that the Lions will beat them. Have you seen Detroit's record the last few years?

2008 Lost every game.

Today, 26 straight road losses. Ugh.

You do have our Tom Brady, former Michigan qb.

Take care. Let us know how the guitar works out.
 
Messages
5,955
Wow. Read the whole saga just to see how it turned out.

I once walked into a Guitar Center and saw too youngish kids (pre-teen?) running thru the aisles chasing each other for some ridiculous reason and one or both knocked an Ibanez RG with a locking trem sitting on a stand over like a bowling pin and quickly righted it and continued their chase.

When they cleared the area I saw the headstock flapping limply and the place was such a madhouse none of the salespeople even saw it happen.

It's harder with mom and pop shops because they might be living from sale to sale in this difficult economy.
 

jrjones

Silver Supporting Member
Messages
8,090
To the OP excellent decision. You have gone out of your way to resolve the situation and that is very honorable.

To some of the other knuckleheads in this thread that kept uttering "thats what insurance is for". YOU are whats wrong with our society today. It's always someone elses problem and responsibility. I hope as your generation ages it manages to figure out basics of right and wrong. I am only 41 and the seperation between the X and Y generation is probably the biggest there ever was in terms of common sense, honor, responsibility and respect for others. I was never a pillar of society but compared to the Y generation I feel like a saint.
While I do agree with what you're saying and am ashamed to be a part of "gen Y" all I have to say is that gen X raised them that way...the people in my generation that have no respect, no honor, feel entitled, etc. (that gen X whines about) is caused by the way gen Xers raise said kids...I can honestly say that the people I know like that are the way they are because of their parents and then there are people like me who actually give a crap and are responsible, again, because of my parents. Rather than looking at the problem, find the source and fix it. I've had to bust my @$$ for what I have and appreciate what it takes to have nice stuff and respect other people's stuff. A guy I know whose parents buy him anything he wants (PRSi, 5150iii, mesa/boogie, taylor, etc) feels no remorse when he puts a ding into the top of my strat with a markerboard that he knocked over on it, then also scratched it up playing it shortly thereafter (while I was eating lunch and it was in a place that he had no business being).
 

Fifthstone

Member
Messages
2,983
Wow...you admit not reading all the posts and than hop up on your high horse and spout off with an uneducated commentary. In the process you've made a fool of yourself on this forum and are clearly in the minority here. Good for you. I suggest you re-read the posts first and then re-read my last sentence. Priceless...
I haven't made a fool of myself. You asked for an opinion and I gave it. And I don't have to read all the other posts in this thread to form my opinion or to provide what you call an "educated" commentary.

If you don't want opinions that don't reinforce what you want to hear then don't ask for commentary in a public forum. The high horse, as you call it, is about taking responsibility for one's actions. If you consider that getting on a high horse, then "good for you". Take comfort in all the responses that bolster your actions.
 
Messages
5,034
I haven't made a fool of myself. You asked for an opinion and I gave it. And I don't have to read all the other posts in this thread to form my opinion or to provide what you call an "educated" commentary.

If you don't want opinions that don't reinforce what you want to hear then don't ask for commentary in a public forum. The high horse, as you call it, is about taking responsibility for one's actions. If you consider that getting on a high horse, then "good for you". Take comfort in all the responses that bolster your actions.

Still haven't read it I see...
 

Fifthstone

Member
Messages
2,983
Still haven't read it I see...
Look, I was responding to the original post. If things have evolved down the road in a good way, then I'm happy to hear it. I don't have time to read 24 pages of posts. So next time, if I can't read an entire thread all the way through I'll just move on. Thanks.
 

BPSUL

Member
Messages
1,664
I haven't made a fool of myself. You asked for an opinion and I gave it. And I don't have to read all the other posts in this thread to form my opinion or to provide what you call an "educated" commentary.

If you don't want opinions that don't reinforce what you want to hear then don't ask for commentary in a public forum. The high horse, as you call it, is about taking responsibility for one's actions. If you consider that getting on a high horse, then "good for you". Take comfort in all the responses that bolster your actions.

Swing and a miss... 0 and 2's the count.
 

guitarfish

Member
Messages
4,041
There was a thread like this 3-6 months back. Bottom line, it's a cost of doing business, it wasn't malicious, the would-be customer isn't responsible for the damage.
 

bluesgolfer

Member
Messages
545
There was a thread like this 3-6 months back. Bottom line, it's a cost of doing business, it wasn't malicious, the would-be customer isn't responsible for the damage.
This response is not intended to address this particular incident.

Cost of doing business is not a defense. If, hypothetically, a customer breaks an item intentionally or through his own negligence, he is responsible. It's the store owner's option as to whether the store want's to eat the loss and write it off as a cost of doing business or to recoup the damages from the customer.


But, good business practice might dictate that the storeowner let the customer slide, repair and sell the item at a profit, and not scare the customer and other customers away.

In the present case, however, I don't understand why the store took such a hard line. They could easily repair the headstock and still sell the guitar at a profit as refurbished or used with a warranty. Or they probably could have received a brand new neck from the manufacturer for very cheap and sold it as new.
 

335guy

Member
Messages
5,232
It appears the issue has been resolved ? If so, that's great. But my $.02 is:
since the OP was asking about ethics and not legalities, my moral compass would seek to hold both parties somewhat responsible. Here's why:

The guitar was placed, by the store, in a flimsy stand to begin with. That was their choice and negligence. The OP did admit to it falling out of the stand right after he placed it back in the stand. If he had used much more care, the guitar may not have fallen forward. We will never know. We also do not know if the guitar broke at this point. To have the store call back hours later and accuse the OP of causing the damage is very petty. We do not know that someone else did not cause the damage later on. Since the store cannot "prove" the OP actually caused the damage, legally, he is not responsible. But this is about ethics. If the OP is fairly certain that the fall over that happened when he placed the guitar back, caused the damage, then he does have some ethical responsibility, but not 100%, because the store neglected to ensure the guitar was safe from damage in the first place by using a faulty stand.

So, legally, the OP has no responsibility as the store cannot prove he was the one to cause the damage. Ethically, the OP has partial responsibility if he is confident that the damaged occurred at the time he placed the guitar back in the stand and it fell forward.

As I said, just my $.02
 

guitarfish

Member
Messages
4,041
I read the whole thread. (I'm sick with a bad cold right now, and pretty useless doing anything else, so this was a welcome diversion).

Itgoesto11 I think you're a standup guy. I followed your line of thought from the beginning. I don't think it was necessary for others here to question your honesty or integrity. If I were in your shoes, I'd have started a thread too, because I value the opinions of others, whether they agree with mine or not. In this situation I'd want to know what others think.

I don't have a particularly high opinion of the store, they handled this poorly, initially. At least they were willing to be reasonable with the compromise.

That looks like a very cool guitar. I only know of Rick Vito from his time with Jackson Browne. (The song "For a Rocker" has been in my head the whole time I've been reading this).

All the best to you, I'm glad things seem to have worked out. I know I'll be extremely careful the next time I'm in a guitar store.
 
Messages
17,654
Has anyone here actually ever broke a $1000 to $2000 guitar and VOLUNTARILY paid for it???
Doubtful...easy to say you would, not so easy to actually do it...

op said it looked fine...whos to say someone else didnt knock it out of the cheap stand...ANYTHING could have happened after he left...

I would tell them to kiss my ass and find a new guitar shop!
 

germs

Member
Messages
5,766
all BS aside, everyone's different.

if i know in my heart that when i put it back on the stand and it was absolutely fine (being honest with myself), then okay. that's that. no way i'm paying.

catch me on camera or something, prove i did it.

if it's a "ah well, i feel pretty bad for you guys" thing where you can't sleep at night...maybe pay cost on the instrument. but definitely not retail or MAP.

that would be crazy.
 

Jaan

Member
Messages
1,847
Has anyone here actually ever broke a $1000 to $2000 guitar and VOLUNTARILY paid for it???
Doubtful...easy to say you would, not so easy to actually do it...

op said it looked fine...whos to say someone else didnt knock it out of the cheap stand...ANYTHING could have happened after he left...

I would tell them to kiss my ass and find a new guitar shop!

I think that's my biggest issue here; that they called hours later. I just don't see how they could be positive it was the OP, especially since it looked fine when he picked it up. I've managed music stores, and I would have never made that call so far after the fact. The OP was a stand up guy to pay for it; I doubt I would have.
 

re-animator

Senior Member
Messages
8,245
again ... negligence + damages = liability.

That is the "legal" answer.
just for the sake of proper understanding:

duty + negligence + damages = liability

the legal question is: was there a duty of care between the consumer and the merchant that was breached??

sorry, law school talking.


I don't work there. I know nothing about the place. You know whether or not you caused the instrument to fall and whether or not it was damaged.

But, even a 12 year old at Guitar Center might feel responsible if he/she broke a guitar at GC.

I remember the first time i played an expensive guitar at a guitar store. when i put it back on the stand i secured it like my life depended on it.

i usually don't eff around with expensive guitars at shops now.
 




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