Eventide H8000FW - All about it... please post here.

Discussion in 'The Rack Space' started by italo de angelis, Nov 21, 2017.

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  1. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    How about a new ULTRATAP algorithm, an upgraded version of the H3000 structure with the following:

    -diffuchorus pre-taps, instead of non mudulated diffusors
    -12 modulated delays (instead of fixed)
    -2 seconds delay memory fo each tap, bringing the overall delay from 1.4 to 24 seconds
    -taps rhythmic values for Tap Tempo/MIDI Clock delays sync
    -2 LFOs controlling 6 taps each, with sweep phase offset
    -selectable feedback tap (the one that feeds audio back to the multitap series input)
    -possibly selectable pre-taps or within feedback path diffusion
    -possibly a tone control in the feedback path (hicut + low cut)
    -possibly some filtering after the stereo mixing block
    -delay time, tapt_value, mod_depth, level and pan for each tap

    calling it Ultra-Tap XXI

    ********************
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2017
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  2. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    I like it, but I think the nice part of EasyTaps is the delay and amplitude curve configurations. I haven't found much desire to set the tap delays myself, because I'm counting on those curves. On the other side of that, I do see a lot of potential for creating more rhythmic tap structures by setting your own delays, instead of reverberations. It seems like you should include both options.

    The nice part about the Space/H9/VST versions is that they've used DiffChorus. It's not configurable at all, but it's there.
    Let's talk more about this.

    Is it safe to assume that you do not plan on using the EasyTaps or MultiTap structures and that you will create 12 modulated delays in place of this? 12 seems to be the number of taps in a lot of the Eventide MultiTap structures (H3000, Space, H9) and I've never quite understood why. To create rhythmic structures in 4/4 time, I would think that 4/8/16/32/64 are required.

    Any why just one tap for feedback? Wouldn't it be better to use two taps to create a stereo field? Perhaps with rates/depths/polarities/feedback paths?

    And what do you think about more LFOs for more depths/rates here, so that the individual taps can receive their own treatment?

    And what about those awesome delay time/amplitude curves that are present in the MultiTap structures? I find those to be one of the greatest elements of a the Eventide multi-tap structures. They're really great for creating early reflections or non-linear verb-ish type stuff.

    Anyway, this isn't meant as a critique. I'm genuinely interested.
     
  3. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    Yes. But I like it. IMO, it's about creating new, animated structures that live and breathe. I've described that scene in my head to you and it's quite important that there's movement all around me when I am in that dark space. The movement brings life to the darkness and it's very, very special.

    I've got to consider this more. I think this means that you connect the inputs to the mod delays, but I'm not quite sure that would work. I'll investigate further. I've been a bit playful with my structures in knowing that they're probably going to be monolithic and a stretch to run at 96k. I could be more careful with resources, but I tend to use the H8000 as a single-engine machine right now, so I haven't been very careful with optimization.

    This to me is a learning method. When I first started to learn to code assembly language, several really great guys sent me their code. From there, I was able to dissect each piece to determine what it did and I recreated the subroutines myself. This ensured that I was actually learning something, instead of cutting and pasting.

    It always strikes when I'm nowhere near my H8000....it sucks.
     
  4. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Meet the ULTRA-TAP XXI
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    hydroquebec said:

    "I like it, but I think the nice part of EasyTaps is the delay and amplitude curve configurations. I haven't found much desire to set the tap delays myself, because I'm counting on those curves. On the other side of that, I do see a lot of potential for creating more rhythmic tap structures by setting your own delays, instead of reverberations. It seems like you should include both options.

    The nice part about the Space/H9/VST versions is that they've used DiffChorus. It's not configurable at all, but it's there.

    Let's talk more about this.

    Is it safe to assume that you do not plan on using the EasyTaps or MultiTap structures and that you will create 12 modulated delays in place of this? 12 seems to be the number of taps in a lot of the Eventide MultiTap structures (H3000, Space, H9) and I've never quite understood why. To create rhythmic structures in 4/4 time, I would think that 4/8/16/32/64 are required.

    Any why just one tap for feedback? Wouldn't it be better to use two taps to create a stereo field? Perhaps with rates/depths/polarities/feedback paths?

    And what do you think about more LFOs for more depths/rates here, so that the individual taps can receive their own treatment?

    And what about those awesome delay time/amplitude curves that are present in the MultiTap structures? I find those to be one of the greatest elements of a the Eventide multi-tap structures. They're really great for creating early reflections or non-linear verb-ish type stuff.

    Anyway, this isn't meant as a critique. I'm genuinely interested."


    Well...
    this requires the user to create curves as it would be simply too much math going on and probably too many modules to fit in the sigfile. I am alreay at 149 modules here.

    I could use the other DSP for math and control work only and bridge the whole brain across DSPs, using the available links (another cool feature of this platform!).
    But hey... some user work isn't bad!

    IT is SAFE to assume that! I'm not using the existing multitaps modules because they do not support modulation, and I can't insert filters and feedback source as I like to.
    Why 12 delays? This type of mono in /stereo out design comes from analog BBD structures, with a beefed up power coming from digital. So... one delay with taps outputs.
    Probably the number is tied to DSP resources... who knows. You can do 4/4 stuff easily anyway.
    Why one tap feedback... because this is that kind of multi-tap ... made of delays in series and parallel. The one you mention is the Lexicon style, which I have already created on the H8000. It's in my library for it... the Korg DL8000R algorithm. Different animal.
    Two LFOs with phase offsets are plenty of madness, one connected to even dlys and the other to odd ones. Mod depths can be positive or negative... plenty of mod possibilities there. Too many parameters 12 LFOs. It just gets too crowded. I'm already at 77 parameters on the UI.

    The curves can be easily recreated while programming the single parameters, looking at some examples from the M_Taps modules.

    Last but not least.... the DIFFCHORUS is fully editable here! A joy.
     
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  6. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    Nice one, @italo de angelis. I wouldn't mind playing with this one! I've been creating several structures lately, but haven't had time to test them. I'll see if I can get something together this weekend and send you my version.
     
  7. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Actually it took me seconds to understand this unit...'cuz *I* am one of the 2 guys who made the box.
    But your question is kind of troublesome to me. I don't deal with drivers and that kind of stuff...
    The H8000FW needs FWire drivers to be installed.
    The H8000 FireWire drivers might need you to create an aggregated driver with your DigiDesign interface.
    Better asking on the Eventide forum where Nick, the system engineer, has better knowledge about this.
    You may also want to read the manual as it has an extended section and examples about using FireWire with other devices.
     
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  8. Jet Bycraft

    Jet Bycraft Member

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    Thank you for the information. I will read the user guide!
     
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  9. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    Here's my UltraTap algorithm: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1SpYzYiaKJ_Rro86nqh4Or79L1db4cwkv

    An input trimmer sums L/R, sends the signal through hi and low cut filters and into EasyTaps with up to 64 taps. The output is then sent to two instances of DiffChorus with 16 allpass filters each. From there, the signal is split. Split one sends the taps and diffusers to a stereo mixer. Split two sends everything through two LFO-opposed modulated delays with hi/low cut filters in the feedback path, and eventually to the same stereo mixer.

    The algorithm is capable of standard taps, modulated delays, reverbs, inverse/bloomed reverbs, etc. You can lengthen the DiffChorus by using the modulated delays, as well as swell the reverb in with the taps and create a long trail with the taps and delay modules.

    Just about every parameter is exposed to the user, including the allpass filters and coefficients.

    @italo de angelis, I'm not certain that I got the module order correct.

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    I think it's just too much. Try making a sound that makes sense... 64 taps into 32 lines diffchorus....
    My suggestion is to get into refining things rather than going over the top!
     
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  11. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Just a few suggestions...
    the algorithm makes no sense to me... too much about muscles and no effects focus, but
    -no need to disclose input summing mixer parameters. Set them at -3dB and keep them hidden
    -no need to have multiple "dummies". You need only one and connect it to every menupage you need lines to be taken (learn to save modules)
    -IIR filters eat resources! You only want to use them when you have a good reason. Why not using other types of filters?
    -no need for filters in the last delays. Audio has been already filtered and crunched by so much stuff before getting into those delays...
    -do you really need two LFOs? How about just phase inversion on one side of a single LFO? After 32 diffchorus... do you really hear 2 LFOs???
    -there is no point in having two LFOs with the same rate/depth/wave!
    -a menupage with 40 params! WTF!!! The more pages in a menu one needs to go thru the harder it gets. Use more menupages with less entries for each
    -diff size should never be 0 or you get unwanted issues
    -when using two diffusers you get more stereoness separating their parameters. There is no point in having the same delays/feedbacks knobs connected to the both modules. Where do you get the stereoness? I'd say the way you configured those two modules is completely unuseful. Often you don't need to disclose ALL those parameters
    -tap tempo control is always a good thing to have (delays/lfos)
    -order of modules is wrong... algorithm has a lot of latency...
    -looks like a power syndrome thing! Take it easier, Billy...

    :rolleyes::oops::cool:
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
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  12. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    here's a much simplified version...
    -input summing hidden to the user
    -IIRs changed into TONE (hicut and lowcut) non need for Q
    -diffchorus modules now down to 8 voices each and internal delays/feedbacks hidden and independent. Set & forget them; use the masters to scale both but they will still sound different as internal delays are set differently.
    -input switches added post diffchoruses so one can choose to add or bypass them. Two extra channels needed on the stereo mixer. One will be able to hear easytaps alone and/or diffchoruses added/alone and the 2 last delays. More possibilities...
    -one LFO with phase inversion on a side
    -dedicated parameters control for each delay (didn't add tap tempo there as I'm lazy now...)

    algorithm now is MUCH lighter and has more possibilities...
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
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  13. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    If I had to do something like that, here's what I'd try...

    -the Easytap doesn't have feedback. That S_U_C_K_S! Where is the fun? That IS the reason why its main uses are either early reflections in reverb design or special effects. Ultrataps style m_taps require feedback; that's the reason why I use separate delays... less voices but more action.
    -to add feedback to Easytap is quite complex... just a predelay w/feedback... but it will be hard to make sense of it. It should probably be set to the longest delay tap time... but some other modules are required to let audio in independently and get the feedback tap in parallel to it...
    -4 Diffchorus with 4 voices each are way more than fine here. I'd add a routing option and design to feed them by input only/diffchoruses only/both
    -not sure about those two delays... I don't see what to do with them.... I'd probably use them as a stereo chorus after the Easytaps... or create an Easytaps modulated feeback as per point 1
    -4 outputs? taps to the front speakers/diffchoruses to the rear ones!
     
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  14. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    Thanks @italo de angelis. There's a lot of info to digest in your last few posts. I will head over to my cave, apply this knowledge, and report back.

    Dudes, this is how you learn something. @italo de angelis is slamming me left and right here, but it's all for my benefit.
     
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  15. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    Funny...after making all of those modifications, I also came to the same conclusion that it's all just too much. Anything more than 32 taps just causes build-up issues and I really had to take a step back and consider what I'm trying to accomplish here...I wanted to create a great set of tools with many options within one preset, yet I haven't refined the individual components.

    The UltraTap algorithm has always been interesting to me - it blends the lines between delay and reverb, but I'm having a lot of trouble doing it properly, where I've made something better than what Eventide's done already.

    I tried many things - adding feedback to EasyTaps (complex, yes, and quite boring at the end of the day), re-working the DiffChorus modules, fixing the filters within the delays, using math functions to switch LFO phase, etc., so a lot was learned. I didn't get much play time, but I was able to load up that Swept Reverb preset for about 15min. At least that one was successful :rolleyes:
     
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  16. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    :horse:horse:horse:horse
    You're doing good... it's just that you started from more advanced stuff... so you get into troubles easily.
    What looks good on paper might not be as good as in real life use. I threw away tons of stuff in my early days... then I realized how an algorithm growth/concept needs to be followed IN actual sound, so I started loading it before finishing... and get to realize what woked and what didn't. UI is the very last step, once you have decided it's all good.
     
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  17. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    If it has to be UltraTap there is no other way than building it as it originally was... using a delay tap for feedback. Which brings back to my design, using separate delay lines and a movable fbck tap (improvement). You can use more lines than what I used but need to be careful with delay memory and size anyway. Math can be used to re_build those original quick setup parameters as in the original algorithm. THAT would be the challenge.
    No need for math to create phase inversion. Just use a MIX and a textknob to set the used channel at +1/-1 and you have perfect -180° phase inversion. My design also covers more fx ground, including reverb as you can add diffusors in several places and re_route them to an alternate structure in which you get reverb from those taps.
     
  18. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    @hydroquebec

    here's a pretty good replica of the H3000 UltraTap algorithm. Some cool stuff going on under the hood there:
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. hydroquebec

    hydroquebec Member

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    I think I'm designing a lot of this stuff at breaks on work and coming home to find that they're a bit inflated and likely unusable. I pulled back a bit today and started to work on components and have a few files that I can load into the H8000 tonight. I replicated some sections of your UltraTap to get more of an understanding of what you're doing. I think taking a smaller, modular approach, and getting those components to a high level of configuration/quality, I can then move on to creating more complex structures. You are correct in that I went in head first. I finally found a canvas for this stuff that's in my head, but I need to go much slower. (I think it has to do with my limited time)

    The use of the SWITCH module was quite intriguing to me. I learned a lot by studying that part of your design. I think I also went the long way about reversing phase on the LFO. I'll try the method you mentioned.

    You are AWESOME! This stuff is like the greatest porn in the world to me. Such a basic structure...that does SOOO MUCH! I sincerely appreciate you posting this, Italo!
     
  20. italo de angelis

    italo de angelis Member

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    Those "switch" modules in the mix dept. can do wonders....
    Also... reversing an audio or LFO signal is pretty much the same thing.
    If you have noticed, modulation I/Os are green as audio ones. The reason is that mod signals are audio signal, running at 1/4th of the used sample rate (for sparing DSP cycles).
    You also have BRIDGE modules, used to convert an audio signal to control or control to audio or even filtered ones (use a ramp of 30) to dezipper their action.
    You can use those bridges to use a knob to directly modulate something (manual flanger?) or any kind of control signal becoming a modulator (tons of things about this....).
    Phase inversion... because audio and mod signals are all treated in the same way, you can use audio modules to invert an LFO signal (the MIX has -1.0 setting for phase inversion) or you can use MATH modules which do math work directly on audio/mod signals. Math modules you can use for audio/mod phase inversions are the AMPMOD, BOUND, SCALE, QUADRATURE. They also do other things so you may not need the more convoluted ones (save cyclces!).

    Awesome platform, isn't it?
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
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