EVM12Ls killing my headroom

[stompbox64]

So I just picked up 2 EVM12L Black Label editions (16 Ohms) and put them in a 2x12 Bandmaster Cab at 8 Ohms.

However, when I hit my distortion pedals (staged to get louder as each one is kicked on) I no longer get louder, just a change on the distortion tone. The old speakers were Celestion V30's.

I have a significantly large signal path prior to going into either:
1. 1969 Fender Dual Showman Reverb
2. Marshall JVM210H (yeah I know, new stuff, but I like the clean on the clean channel).
3. Marshall 1959 HW Head.
4. Boogie Lone Star

Signal Path:
Guitar (Gibson 335 or Fender Jag CP HH) - Fulldrive II (clean boost) - Fulltone TR100 - Fulltone Bassdrive Mosfet - Fulltone OCD - Box of Rock - Wah - Boss Space Echo - Line6 Verbzilla - Fulltone Supatrem

Anyone know what's going on? Is it that the 300 watts per speaker change is reducing the Decibels at the same wattage?

 

[Dave_C]

That's REALLY weird. I have an EVM-12L Classic in a 1x12 and a bunch of other 1x12 and 2x12 cabs and a 4x12, all loaded with different speakers and they all behave the same way in response to pedal stomps intended to increase output level. I wonder if you maybe wired the speakers out of phase.

 

[Agileguy_101]

Watts is not equal to volume. It's applied mostly to amps, but it's true of speakers too. You need to look at the efficiency rating of your speakers. Now, I don't know what your new speakers are rated at, but IIRC V30's are rated at 102 decibels. If your current speakers are rated below that, you may have found your problem.

 

[Blix]

Now that sounds really weird indeed, none of my two 1x12's with EVL12L's behave that way.

 

[sunburst79]

Any chance the previous speakers were at their crunch point and sounded louder as the gain went up? Meaning that the volume increase was more perceived than it may have actually been. While I don't know the efficiency rating for either the V30 or the 12L my experience has been that putting a EV into a amp usually nets an increase in actual volume. My experience with EVs would tend indicate that your going to run out of headroom in the output stage of the amp long before the speaker. I recently swapped a V30 and a EV Fender 12F into both my Rivera era Concert and my Dual Professional in both cases the amp was noticeably louder and cleaner sounding. If I had to jump to a conclusion I would check the speaker polarity with a battery and make sure they are in phase and there's not some type of phase cancelation going on that's causing you to crank the amp up a little more than normal. Another scenario might be increased speaker efficiency causing you to turn down the master on a amp and that changing the overall gain structure.

 

[aflynt]

Were the Vintage 30s 16ohms too? If the overall impedance of the cabinet changed that could theoretically change the behavior of the output stage of the amp. If it has become an increased mismatch with the amps OT rating, that could explain the change in sound. Whatever it is, it sounds like you're getting compression somewhere in the signal chain.

-Aaron

 

[stompbox64]

That's REALLY weird. I have an EVM-12L Classic in a 1x12 and a bunch of other 1x12 and 2x12 cabs and a 4x12, all loaded with different speakers and they all behave the same way in response to pedal stomps intended to increase output level. I wonder if you maybe wired the speakers out of phase.

Thanks - I'll give that a look. I don't think that's the case, but I'll double check.

 

[stompbox64]

Were the Vintage 30s 16ohms too? If the overall impedance of the cabinet changed that could theoretically change the behavior of the output stage of the amp. If it has become an increased mismatch with the amps OT rating, that could explain the change in sound. Whatever it is, it sounds like you're getting compression somewhere in the signal chain.

-Aaron

Impedance did change, but matched to the proper load on the back of the Marshalls and Mesa, but same results.

 

[Sirloin]

Watts is not equal to volume. It's applied mostly to amps, but it's true of speakers too. You need to look at the efficiency rating of your speakers. Now, I don't know what your new speakers are rated at, but IIRC V30's are rated at 102 decibels. If your current speakers are rated below that, you may have found your problem.

v30 efficiency is rated at 100db 1 watt/1 meter not 102db http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/ Although this doesn't really help the OP.

 

[aflynt]

You didn't happen to change anything about the cabinet did you? You might get a more compressed sound if you moved from an open to closed back configuration.

-Aaron

 

[stompbox64]

You didn't happen to change anything about the cabinet did you? You might get a more compressed sound if you moved from an open to closed back configuration.

-Aaron

No change to the cabinet. Do you know if 12Ls sound get more mids/treble range if they are mounted in an open back cab? I was thinking of making this change, as well.

 

[stompbox64]

v30 efficiency is rated at 100db 1 watt/1 meter not 102db http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/ Although this doesn't really help the OP.

Sirloin is right, just checked the spec's for both. Funny thing, both are the same (100db at 1 watt/1meter).

 

[Sirloin]

Keep in mind v30s mid range hump might be perceived as louder/higher headroom versus the EVs flatter response since guitar 'lives' in the mid range frequencies. Kinda doubt this is what is actually going on in the OP's case though.

 

[FFTT]

Verify phase doing the 9 volt battery test.

Both cones should move forward together when battery voltage is applied.

EV's are more like reference monitors that can be quite unforgiving
with the wrong amp or amp setting.

This is why I like pairing one EV up with a complimentary 2nd speaker,
that covers low mids to top end more favorably than the EV alone can do.

 

[Tone_Terrific]

However, when I hit my distortion pedals (staged to get louder as each one is kicked on) I no longer get louder, just a change on the distortion tone.

Highly unlikely that it is the speakers.
Does your volume control still work? That will indicate the dynamic range of the rig. Try it clean.
Redo the settings on the OD boxes.

 

[bulletproof_funk]

How easy would it be to test out each speaker individually to see if the problem is with one speaker, wiring (phase), the connection, or none of the above?

 

[SinkingShip]

Highly unlikely that it is the speakers.
Does your volume control still work? That will indicate the dynamic range of the rig. Try it clean.
Redo the settings on the OD boxes.

I agree, the EV12L is a damn loud and clean speaker that puts out exactly what goes in.....so the most likely change is that you are now hearing exactly what the signal path was putting out previously, just with no speaker colouration added.

I can barely run 2 gain pedals at once without running into problems with compression/saturation that mimic loss of volume, especially on a gained up amp. If you are running a powerful amp set cleanish with little preamp gain then a big hit with pedals is going to be a mammoth volume jump, start adding amp gain and this volume jump slowly becomes less audible and often an associated eq change that is harder to hear in the mix , IMO. Based on this I can't see how the EV has changed the equation EXCEPT for the speaker eq itself i.e. a V30 cuts into a mix better than an EV due to some mid-spike "sounding" louder but in reality no db changes ?

It's impossible to go back in time to ensure your memory is exactly correct(unless you want to re-install the old speakers or find a similar v30 cab for trials) but I would be checking 100% that absolutely nothing else has changed i.e. have you made ANY small knob adjustments to either gain and/or volume on the amps. Just sounds like the exact behaviour of all amps I've ever played regardless of speaker....more pedals/gain ect hits a ceiling of potential volume jump and as you add more it begins to become super saturated smooth "gain mush" with no mix-cut ability at all .

Good luck these kinds of volume/gain/cut issues are total %#@^ to solve the more you sneak into the high gain area for solo's. The only foolproof answer is multi channels with independant channel vols or multi amps with amp switching IMO

 

[guitarjazz]

EV's always make an amp heavier and louder. I've had more of them than I can count that is always the case. They do sound great mixed with another brand of speaker.

 

[Timbre Wolf]

Verify phase doing the 9 volt battery test.

Both cones should move forward together when battery voltage is applied.

Important additional information:
The "+" terminal of the battery, when applied to the "+" terminal of the speaker, will make the speaker move forward. If the speaker moves backwards, then the speaker terminal connected to the "+" of the battery is the negative speaker terminal.

- T